DMOC and Relinquished

F

Fury

New Member
Here's the ruling I have problems with:
If "Dark Magician of Chaos" is equipped to "Relinquished", and is destroyed, then "Dark Magician of Chaos" is removed from play.
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The problem is DMOC's effect that removes it from play is continuous. While it is equipped to Relinquished it has no effects at all. So what removes it?

In an earlier thread we discussed that Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys wont return if destroyed while equipped to relinquished because at the time of destruction it had no effect.
But Sangan gets its effect because it activates in the grave and at that point the card is already reset to a monster (with its effects).

The effect of DMOC is not a graveyard effect, so why does it work?
 
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Apparently nobody saw what masterwoo0 said: 'Dark Magician of Chaos' third line is not an effect, but a condition, hence why it isn't negated by the likes of 'Skill Drain', you can't do anything about it, it's just there, and applies whether the card is a monster or whatever (yes, very much like the Harpie Ladies).
 
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Cropz said:
Apparently nobody saw what masterwoo0 said: 'Dark Magician of Chaos' third line is not an effect, but a condition, hence why it isn't negated by the likes of 'Skill Drain', you can't do anything about it, it's just there, and applies whether the card is a monster or whatever (yes, very much like the Harpie Ladies).
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Not quite. It is not the fact that it is a condition that allows it to run willy-nilly all about the game in an unstoppable manner, it is where it is when the condition is applied ( Though Skill Drain would not be able to stop it, even if it was a monster. ).

I am going to go a bit off topic to adress this. Level monsters are filled with conditions, but they can be negated by skill drain. A condition is just another piece of the effect.

What we are questioning here is how this card is able to retain this condition, within it effect, even though it was attached to Relinquished and no longer has an effect. It gains this effect and its ability to recongnize the condition back again once it leaves the field.

Let's put this up as a test.

Let's say that you ram a "Scapegoat" into an "Armed Dragon Lv5", and then you absorb it with "relinquished" in your main phase 2. Will you be able to later send that absorbed card to the graveyard to summon a monster? Of course not. It no longer has an effect, it is just an equip magic card now due to "Relinquished's" effect.
 
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A condition required to fulfill an effect (the LV Monsters) is different from this Condition 'Dark Magician of Chaos' and the Harpie Ladies have, and neither can be negated by 'Skill Drain'.
Conditions that are set in order to fulfill the activation of an effect are the "memory" of the monster that it did something, it allows it to activate the effect.
'Dark Magician of Chaos' Condition is always there, regardless.

In your example, of course 'Armed Dragon LV5' wouldn't be able to activate its effect, you fulfilled the condition to activate the effect, but since you are unable to do so ('Armed Dragon LV5' is not a Monster), nothing happens.

It should be noted that, even when using the same word ("condition"), they are not the same thing, and should not be confused.
 
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Remember when Elemental Mistress Doriado was first released? Her effect was listed as a condition at that time. Which meant, her effect applied no matter where she was. Removed from play, and she was still considered to be each Attribute. They later errated her to be a genuine effect.

The point is, conditions are not like effects. They apply everywhere, regardless of whether they have the templating of a Continuous Effect or the templating of a Trigger. Like Harpie Lady 1, 2 and 3 and Umi. They can even affect Deck construction. The condition cannot be erased.

There may be cases where the condition can't apply, like the condition says "this monster gains this much ATK". Naturally that couldn't apply if it's equipped to Relinquished, simply because it has no stats to increase. But if we have an effect that says "do this when this card does this". Then you've got a condition that it can still fulfil, because it's not impaired functionally in any way.
 
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There are a few things that need to be mentioned here:

1. I think I crossed a few wires here and have rustled up a bit of confusion as far as my thoughts about limbo and conditions, and how they apply to DMoC. I got a little doubtful of my own words and began to falter a bit down the line. But I am pretty sure we all agree on the outcome of DMoC being sent out of play even when attached as an equip.

2. I whole heartedly agree that its effect cannot be negated, but I do not think that this thread was ever really about negation so much as why it happened that way.

3. I do not think that the conditions of Umi and Legendary Ocean, along with The harpy cards quite fit this scenario. Those are conditions that affect the way the deck is built.
I think Digital Jedi's example of the former Elemental Mistress Doriado is the kind of example card that would describe what is going on. It was a condition that had to do with game play, and not deck building. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but you could have played Skill Drain in the past and taken her multi attributes away, but once she hit the graveyard she would aquire them all again.

I think what needs to be taken from this thread is that the conditions are always being checked by DMoC and that the conditions can be acted upon because it is not, and cannot be under any sort of effect constraints such as TER, Skill Drain, etc. because it is in limbo and those things (cannot even touch/are not even touching) it in limbo.

I need to slow down when I am typing these things out. I think I opened up a whirlwind of confusion as to my beliefs on the subject. I think we were both talking about two different aspects of the same thing.
 
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1. Indeed.

2. I was just giving an example, it really has nothing to do with this specific situation.

3. It IS the same thing, the only difference is the kind of condition, as 'Dark Magician of Chaos' specifically states "when this card is removed from the field...", while 'A Legendary Ocean' and the Harpie Ladies are just treated as a different card. always.

The point with 'Elemental Mistress Doriado' is moot, if it was changed, it was wrong.

If you were right, then 'Cyber Harpie Lady' wouldn't be treated as 'Harpie Lady' while face-up on the field if 'Skill Drain' was active, which is not the case.
 
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Regardless... and im only saying this once...

All text written in the text box of an "Effect Monster" is "Effect Text" and is thus an "Effect" no matter the interpretation.

Konami simply deems this as non-negatable text. Plain and simple, condition or no condition... That is why they call them Effect Monsters in the first place.

Quite frankly, I have never agreed with the this pattern of calling things "conditions", and therefore allowing them to go outside of the boundries of regular effects.

The truth is, Konami never thought to make a "special" section for text that was not "effect" but rather a "characteristic" of the monster itself. So unfortunately, they have to resort to putting it as "Effect Text" and thus calling them "Effect Monsters"... which is erroneous. Since nothing that negates "Effect" can stop it... silly The question you have to ask yourself is why they call Cyber Harpie Lady and Effect Monster, when she has no effect?

If you are looking for the correct terminology, then it would be "characteristic", as it is part of the definition of the monster itself, just like it's Star Level or Attribute. As there are "conditions" that can be negated, or course depending on your definition.... ;)

But ...of course since there is no "Official Terminology"... it is technically "Effect" no? lol

Yes, i'm back to cause trouble...lol... not really
 
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