Draw phase rules

[psychoticTuba]

If my opponent starts his turn and forgets to draw at the beginning can he go back and draw whenever he pleases on that turn? I have had this happen to me quite a few times and i was just wondering if they could.

 

[chaosruler]

no, they must start their turn by drawing a card.

-chaosruler

 

[Dragon Reaver]

Ok, if now what if they forget to draw till after i draw for my turn?
Would it be different, if i had started making my move?

 

[Jason_C]

So what would be the penalty? Personally, I'd give a game loss to both players for allowing the state to be so irrevocably damaged. Because all plays made during that turn may and almost certainly will depend on what was drawn.

 

[chaosruler]

Hmm. It depends on how much took place during their turn. If nothing happened that would affect play, then I would only give warnings. But if the turn player made a series of complex decisions, etc. or played a few cards, then it's an irreparible game state, and I'd have to issue the non-drawing player a game loss. The opponent would receive a warning as well, however.

-John

 

[John Danker]

The way it's been explained to me by UDE officials is that anything that is MANDATORY and that is known to both players (such as a draw, Sangan's effect, the complete resolution of Graceful Charity, etc.) it is the responsability of both players to make certain that it happens and at the correct time.

If you notice that your opponent has begun their standby phase or main phase 1 by attempting to activate a spell or trap card....stop them, remind them that they've yet to draw. If you opponent gives you a line about drawing later call a judge over. If you both forget and remember later in the turn call over a hudge and let the judge decide the course of action. If you both forget past the current turn I'm afraid you're both at fault of making an irrepairable game state and it's quite possible you'll both be issue a game loss.

 

[daivahataka]

Usually the only time I come accross this is during the first turn where the player draws 5 cards but then forgets to draw a sixth, usually they have the good sense to realise their omission before they end their turn and so can verify if they drew a card with a quick count of their hand, field and graveyard. Even this though baffles me since the start of any turn is the draw of a card, how people can forget this when beginning their turn...:icon_conf

 

[BenjaminMS]

Still you can, lol. Just when your mind says: 'Quick, quick'. LOL

:icon_roll

 

[masterwoo0]

Usually the only time I come accross this is during the first turn where the player draws 5 cards but then forgets to draw a sixth, usually they have the good sense to realise their omission before they end their turn and so can verify if they drew a card with a quick count of their hand, field and graveyard. Even this though baffles me since the start of any turn is the draw of a card, how people can forget this when beginning their turn...:icon_conf

It's easier than you think, when you have an incredible hand with just 5 cards!!

You're already thinking what you are going to do to your opponent, and cant wait to start your turn. Typical 5 card hand that might cause that.

Turn Player summons D.D. Assailant, sets a Spell or Trap (we'll say, Enemy Controller) and ends his turn.

Now, the upcoming turn player already has a Cyber-Stein, Snatch Steal, Creature Swap, Giant Trunade, and a Meteor of Destruction. That sounds like Game, right?

So at that point, the new Turn Player knows that he pretty much has the game, as long as his opponent doesnt have a Waboku, Threatening Roar, or a Kuriboh in hand, and is more focused on getting his OTK/FTK, than drawing his card, and may even feel that it's unnecessary since he has the apparent win.

 

[BenjaminMS]

Based on this (to lengthen this thread, lol): what if someone forgot he WASN'T allowed to draw (by the effect of Reckless Greed etc.)?



Greetings,
BenjaminMS

 

[Jason_C]

Based on this (to lengthen this thread, lol): what if someone forgot he WASN'T allowed to draw (by the effect of Reckless Greed etc.)?



Greetings,
BenjaminMS

Sadly, I do that on a regular basis, to the point I actually had to take the card OUT of my deck, it was getting me into so much trouble O_O. I would say the penalty would still be game loss, because the opponent can't even prove WHICH card was drawn (tournament policy states players may shuffle their hand at ANY time), nor can they cause the opponent to forget which card they just drew.

In some ways, however, I believe the game loss should go only to the player who mistakenly drew. After all, how was the non-turn player going to stop the turn player from drawing? It takes one second to draw, during which time the non-turn player would have no opportunity to stop the drawer. It wasn't his fault unless he allowed play to continue long after that.

 

[BenjaminMS]

I agree with that. Normally spoken (warning: NORMALLY spoken) drawing is something that players do thoughtlessly.

 

[John Danker]

Based on this (to lengthen this thread, lol): what if someone forgot he WASN'T allowed to draw (by the effect of Reckless Greed etc.)?



Greetings,
BenjaminMS

The opponent SHOULD remind them (hopefully catching them before they've added the card to their hand) However, if a player adds a card to their hand when they shouldn't have it's considered drawing extra cards (so long as it was indeed added to the hand) and considered a game loss on the part of the turn player. Non-turn player may very well get a warning for not stopping their opponent (though I've yet to see this be done unless it's a proceedural error that is repetative such as in a Time Seal situation)

 

[Jason_C]

And this is why you're the rulings super hero...

Now, supposing I draw a card on a humid day, and, sadly, the top two cards on my deck stick together. Inevitably, but completely inadvertently, I see the second card. Should I just shuffle it back into my deck? Would that warrant a game loss? What if there were complications, such as a certain card like Spiritual Wind Art - Miyabi affecting my deck?

 

[BenjaminMS]

I think you'd need to shuffle it and receive a warning...

 

[John Danker]

And this is why you're the rulings super hero...

Now, supposing I draw a card on a humid day, and, sadly, the top two cards on my deck stick together. Inevitably, but completely inadvertently, I see the second card. Should I just shuffle it back into my deck? Would that warrant a game loss? What if there were complications, such as a certain card like Spiritual Wind Art - Miyabi affecting my deck?

If you "DRAW" an extra card and add it to your hand...it's a game loss. (even though it's a shame that it was unintentional)

If, however, you pick up a card, see it, don't yet add it to your hand (catching your mistake before you do) STOP! Set your hand to the side. Holding the card in your hand...explain to your opponent what you've done. Call over a judge. At this point the game state is STILL repairable (arguably I'll agree but this is what I've been instructed) Call over a judge. The judge will likely tell you to reveal the card to your opponent and place it back on top of the deck...then continue play.

 

[daivahataka]

...Call over a judge. The judge will likely tell you to reveal the card to your opponent and place it back on top of the deck...then continue play.

I would've thought that they should reshuffle the deck? After all before drawing the card they didn't know what the top card was, and after reshuffling they won't either, it could be the same card it could be a different one. Knowing what the next card is, even if your opponent also knows will definitely influence your choice of plays for that turn. Suppose this is one advantage to the penalty guidelines being but guidelines.

 

[masterwoo0]

I would've thought that they should reshuffle the deck? After all before drawing the card they didn't know what the top card was, and after reshuffling they won't either, it could be the same card it could be a different one. Knowing what the next card is, even if your opponent also knows will definitely influence your choice of plays for that turn.

Chances are, you still have the cards in the same order, and the top card is STILL going to be the card you would draw that turn, so the additional card is STILL going to be the next card drawn.

It's a fair call. Both players know what the card is. So he could always prepare for it, and even though it gives you an advantage as the player knowing what you are going to draw next, your opponent could also have a Morphing Jar that could cause it to be sent to the Graveyard anyway.

So just because you know, doesnt mean it is going to work in your favor.

 

[John Danker]

Very well reasoned and said. One should never assume that just shuffling something back into the deck repairs. Actually on the contrary. You've altered the order of the deck making an irrepairable game state by doing so.

 

[daivahataka]

Irreparable damage to a possible future game state as opposed to obvious irreparable damage to the current game state.
Your opponent could activate a card effect which would change the top card on your deck somehow, irrelevant if you've reshuffled the deck but very relevant if you've played this turn out with the belief that the card you've had a look at will be your next draw.

As long as you're pretty sure of what the top card on your deck is that is going to influence your plays, it could easily also influence your opponent's plays (e.g. keeping the Solemn Judgment they have for the Jinzo on top of your deck instead of using it to negate something else which they would've otherwise used it to negate this turn). The entire point to shuffling the deck in the first place is so that you can't just pre-order your cards and so have your entire strategy preplanned, taking a peek at the top card clearly circumvents this.

And also just because it doesn't benefit you doesn't mean it's not damage to the game state (perfect example being shuffling the face down spell/trap cards on the field at the start of your turn, it's not allowed at any time, unless specified by an effect, yet if done at the start of your turn it benefits no-one, other than perhaps allowing you to make them easier for yourself to track, a simple convienience. Or even to place face up equips under the monster they are equipped to.).

I just don't feel that showing the card to your opponent is quite enough, regardless of how this is handled the game state is irreparably damaged, it's really down to a Judge's decision as to which is worse:
Playing out a turn of both players knowing the next draw
or
Resetting it such that neither player knows whats next but perhaps changing the order of the cards in the player's deck, which, to be frank, if properly shuffled in the first place should make no difference to the player's decisions anyway as the order should be entirely up to luck.