Elemental Hero Wildheart and Horus 8 questions

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I would have to say no, he wouldn't get summoned. His effect is not active until after he has been successfully summoned to the field. So he's not 'immune' to traps while in your hand, deck or Graveyard.
 
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skey23 said:
I would have to say no, he wouldn't get summoned. His effect is not active until after he has been successfully summoned to the field. So he's not 'immune' to traps while in your hand, deck or Graveyard.
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thanks a bunch!!!!!
 
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Oh man yet another one of TR vs Wildheart. I for one still say Wildheart cannot attack, reason being, I still say opponent is not the same as monster, I know Swords will come into discussion, but remember Swords has to be face-up on the field.
 
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I know that wordings are what make this so difficult, but this is my point of view:

While they have the same meaning in text monsters like Horus, are always checking for Spell cards to ignore, if they don't see them how can they ignore them? Take this example for instance Level Up!, why is it that Horus is unaffected by it? because it is a cost, costs are paid for before effect, so Horus never gets to see Level Up! activating.

This is my argument TR, resolves and dissappears, telling the player "you can't declare an attack", practically leaving his mouth shut. Wildheart can't see any trap cards, he's just waiting for his controller to say "attack".

In Horus' case, Horus sees Swords and says "controller there is a spell card saying I can't be told to attack, but I don't care about that".
 
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Okay, let's take this Normal Spell Card, Kaminote Blow

Kaminote Blow
Normal Spell

You can only activate this card if there is at least 1 face-up "Chu-Ske the Mouse Fighter", "Monk Fighter", or "Master Monk" on your side of the field. Destroy the monster(s) that battle with these monsters on your side of the field this turn, at the end of each Damage Step.

This is a Normal Spell Card that has long resolved, but still has its "effect" lingering on the field. When a monster that Battles with any of the listed monsters is destroyed, is it because they are feeling the "effect" of Kaminote Blow, or is it "just because"?

If it's because they are being destroyed by the effect of Kaminote Blow, then that shows that even though a card resolves and is no longer on the field face-up, it can still affect a monster, so that would mean that Wildheart can still be affected by Threatening Roar, yet "not" be affected.
 
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slither said:
I know that wordings are what make this so difficult, but this is my point of view:

While they have the same meaning in text monsters like Horus, are always checking for Spell cards to ignore, if they don't see them how can they ignore them? Take this example for instance Level Up!, why is it that Horus is unaffected by it? because it is a cost, costs are paid for before effect, so Horus never gets to see Level Up! activating.

This is my argument TR, resolves and dissappears, telling the player "you can't declare an attack", practically leaving his mouth shut. Wildheart can't see any trap cards, he's just waiting for his controller to say "attack".

In Horus' case, Horus sees Swords and says "controller there is a spell card saying I can't be told to attack, but I don't care about that".
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So explain Burst Stream of Destruction and Blue-Eyes White Dragon. If you use Burst Stream of Destruction and then afterwards summon another Blue-Eyes White Dragon neither of your Blue-Eyes can attack that round because the lingering effect of Burst Stream is still preventing them from attacking. Now activate Non-Spellcasting Area and both Blue-Eyes can attack because they are now unaffedted by the lingering effect of Burst Stream. This is simple logic. Threatening Roar is a lingering effect which states you can't attack. Wildheart is unaffected by that effect and allows you to attack. That is all there is to it. I believe you are seeing this more along the lines of Jinzo who if summoned to the field after Threatening Roar has resolved will be unable to negate the lingering effect of Threatening Roar and will not be able to attack. Wildheart is truly unaffected, he is not a negator, it is like comparing Horus LV6 with Spell Canceller.
 
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Problem with all cards mentioned above is "monsters" monsters are affected. Now im not saying that im right, but I may be right.
 
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slither said:
Problem with all cards mentioned above is "monsters" monsters are affected. Now im not saying that im right, but I may be right.
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Monsters will always be affected whenever an effect prevents an attack.

Like I said earlier, a "player" cannot attack without a monster. If the player's monster cannot attack, can the "player" then attack his opponents monsters, or even attack directly?

No.

So it makes perfect sense to say that "A player may not declare an attack....", because the assumption will ALWAYS be that the player will be attacking with A MONSTER!!
 
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I know what you're saying I don't disagree with that either, but there are conditions placed on the player which one can represent that a player may be involved with certain aspects of the game.

Now this is why I emphasized, im not saying that I am right, as I may be right I might be wrong as well, there is no official ruling involving this case, and we can't be sure until the official ruling is placed.
 
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This is just how I see it.

Threatening Roar functions very much like Soul Exchange. In fact, I believe that Threatening Roar's card text is merely a re-written version of Soul Exchange. It isn't exactly the same card text probably because of two reasons.

1) It's a normal trap.

2) It's affecting your opponent and not you.

Now, just keep that in mind with this next piece of information.

You compare Swords of Revealing Light and Threatening Roar together. Swords of Revealing Light works in a slightly different way.

"Flip all face-down monsters on your opponent's side of the field face-up. This card remains face-up on the field for 3 of your opponent's turns. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, your opponent cannot declare an attack."

The bolded text. That's the key difference in how the two cards work differently. The effects of Silent Swordsman LV5 and Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 are referening to face up Spell cards.

The reason why Toll and Gravekeeper's Servant don't work with Silent Swordsman LV5 or Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 is because their effects continuously check for that moment in which the cost to attack (which is part of the effect) can't be met.

Threatening Roar has no such effect that continuously checks for these kinds of things. It's out right preventing the opponent from ever having the chance to declare an attack at all. That's how Soul Exchange works for the Turn Player. IMO they merely took it to the next level and made it in trap form.

Now you might be wondering how reference this has with Swords of Revealing Light. Re-read the bolded text I made. The continuous check is that half of that sentence in which the bolded text is contained in.

Those are just my thoughts on how Threatening Roar would prevent the opponent from declaring an attack with Wildheart.

=/
 
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You left out one important aspect of Soul Exchange that shoots your explanation down.

Soul Exchange says "Skip your Battle Phase".

Threatening Roar says "Cannot declare an attack".


Does Threatening Roar prevent you from "entering" your Battle Phase? No it doesnt. Soul Exchange takes away your Battle Phase entirely. Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 and Silent Swordsman LV5 cannot "erase" the fact that a whole phase must be skipped. You cant declare an attack if you cant even enter the Phase where it is conducted.

That's not an effect from Soul Exchange. The effect is the tribute part. The condition for activation is the skipping of your Battle Phase.

Threatening Roar doesnt have a condition for activation that affects the controller. Not being able to declare an attack is part of the effect, which affects the opponent. Elemental Hero Wildheart is unaffected by Trap cards, so he would be unaffected by anything that was directly related to the "effect" of a Trap Card.
 
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You're forgetting something IMO. Threatening Roar targets your opponent. Notice the very first two words in the card text. "Your opponent", which references to targetting your opponent.

This isn't the same like Swords of Revealing Light. It has "As long as this card remains face-up on the field," instead which is what makes Swords of Revealing Light affect monsters and Threatening Roar not. The effect of Silent Swordsman LV5 and Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 ignore face up Spell cards or those that would affect them, like Smashing Ground.

Elemental Hero Wildheart functions the same way. It isn't affected by the effects of face up trap cards or cards that affect him. Such as Sakuretsu Armor, Widespread Ruin, Gravity Bind, Magic Cylinder, and Torrential Tribute.

Threatening Roar creates a generic condition after it resolves. This condition isn't an effect placed on monsters; as conditions and effects are two different things. It's placed on the opponent. Sure you can say it doesn't prevent the opponent from "entering" the Battle Phase, but since they can't declare an attack they go straight through the whole process of the Battle Phase without even attacking. So saying they can enter their Battle Phase still is pretty mute to me.
 
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Why does everyone that has a problem with Threatening Roars text think that monsters separate themselves from their controller when they attack??

You cant attack without a monster, though you can enter your Battle Phase. Any time you are told you cant declare an attack, it affects the monster, not the player.

YOU CAN NEVER ATTACK!! A Player doesnt have attack or defense points, so he can never be considered a Monster that can attack. This isnt like the Yugioh Anime, where you can become a DeckMaster. So what good does it do to just put "A player cannot declare an attack", if the understanding isnt that it is the monster that is attacking and not the player??

A monster cannot attack without the player. The two are connected. Not separate.

Also, Elemental Hero Wildheart is not affected by Return from the Different Dimension either, so how does that card effect not cause a problem since it is long in the Graveyard when it is time to remove monsters from play at End Phase?

Its not there for him to ignore.
 
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Because Return from the Different Dimension places a connection point on the monsters it brought back. That connection point is checked at the End Phase so the last portion of its effect resolves.

But like I've said, my ruling on Threatening Roar is just an opinion. I'm probably wrong anyway. I also would mind if you toned it down with the attitude. It isn't very respectful towards me or anyone else that have placed their opinion on the situation nor does it follow the rules of the site. There's already been a couple members that have shown this kind of behavior on the site. Just don't want it to happen to you. This isn't a threat, but rather I'm just looking out for you. =P

If the link Threatening Roar's text reads is what you say, then a lot of people were wrong. If not then a lot of people were still wrong anyway. Either way, people are going to be wrong.

I think the problem here lies more with reading too much into the card text and comparing it too much with other card text and rulings. After you've read so much into the card text you most likely increase your chances of making a critical error and misunderstand something. I believe that was the case with me; hasn't been the first time.

So with the excellent point you've made about how a player can't attack without a monster and how monsters can't attack on their own changes my entire opinion.

And yes, I do have information to back up my logic behind changing my mind.

Monsters can't attack without a player just as much as a player can't attack without a monster. This fact is so simple that it disproves Threatening Roar preventing Wildheart from attacking 100%. Let me go into more detail.

The only cards that really affect the player are those cards that force a player to skip a game phase. Such as Soul Exchange and Battle Phase, Solomon's Lawbook and Standby Phase, Fenrir and Draw Phase, Time Seal and Draw Phase, Timeater and Main Phase 1, and any other card that forces a player to skip a game phase.

Other cards that affect the player and not monsters are cards like Cold Wave, Non Aggression Area, Scapegoat activated in the same turn and the player can't summon; same goes for Stray Lambs, Timidity, and any other card that prevents a player from preforming a certain action. Even the effects of Jinzo and Spell Canceller affect the players because of the whole part about Spell/Trap cards can't be activated while their face up on the field.

I'm glad you corrected me on this ruling Masterwoo0. However, I'd like to point out there's a monster in SOI with the same exact effect as Elemental Hero Wildheart. It will be interesting to see if added rulings like with Threatening Roar pop up with it or not. If not, then at least we have a bulletproof ruling and explaination to use in giving to a player that disagrees with us at an event. Naturally, if they appeal and the Head Judge rules differently, you'll have to use the ruling that the Head Judge uses and discuss it later with him/her.

=P
 
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But you know Tk, you brought a very interesting card in regards to this topic:

Cold Wave, why do I bring this up? If my logic serves me right, then Cold Wave would prevent the player, right, but as masterwooO said players have a connection with the monsters as much as with any cards for that matter, then why wouldn't Spiritualism be able to be activated?
 
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slither said:
But you know Tk, you brought a very interesting card in regards to this topic:

Cold Wave, why do I bring this up? If my logic serves me right, then Cold Wave would prevent the player, right, but as masterwooO said players have a connection with the monsters as much as with any cards for that matter, then why wouldn't Spiritualism be able to be activated?
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Because "Cold Wave" isn't negating anything. It's preventing it's activation. If you notice in the rulings for "Spiritualism", "Sonic Jammer" also does not allow for the activation of "Spiritualism".

Negate .vs Prevent - Similar, but different...lol.
 
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Because Cold Wave doesn't negate the activation of anything. If a player is being prevented from activating or setting Spell/Trap cards, this would include Spiritualism.

If you read Spiritualism and then read Cold Wave, that point is very clear. Spiritualism's activation can't be negated by any card.

Then you look at the Spell Canceller it says Spell Cards can't be activated. Then the last sentence of it's text says that the Spell Cards are also negated. That's how Spiritualism works while Spell Canceller is face up on the field. Unfortunately, I don't believe there's a trap card like Spiritualism even created yet.

Sonic Jammer just out right says your opponent can't activate any Spell Card until the end of End Phase of the next turn. Prevention doesn't mean the same thing as negation. Just keep that in mind.
 
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Personally, I feel like I'm the one being insulted. I dont expect anyone to jump on my bandwagon, but when I keep getting the same argument, "The player is being targeted", that just doesnt make sense, as the "player" can never attack.

I could see if there was an effect that allowed the player, at a cost, to attack his opponent either directly or one of his opponent's monsters, but there isnt, so any effect that direct the player to skip his Battle Phase, or tells him he cannot declare an attack, is simply saying,

"If you are eligible to declare an attack on your opponent with a eligible monster, this turn you will be unable to do so."

Instead of continually saying you could be wrong, and presenting the same argument, at least drop the Player is targeted. I dont have a "tone". I have a "emphasis", and my emphasis is that if you target the player, you target the monster as well. If the monster is unaffected by Spells or Traps, then the player is unaffected as well, which is indicated by card effects like Gravekeeper's Servant and Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6.

I provided a example also with Kaminote Blow. A Spell Card that leaves a lingering effect. I have at least tried to show examples to "emphasize" my point of view, while I cant say that there are any examples that have been shown as of yet where an effect that designates a player not being able to attack is strictly targeting the player and NOT the player and the monster.

If I'm wrong, Im just VERY wrong. But I fail to see the connection of Threatening Roar only targeting the player when its a lingering effect, and the player and monster are not separate when you are talking about an attack.
 
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