Exiled Force, Ring of Destruction, and Priority + other priority questions

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exiledforcefreak

RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
Ok, so I got my first E-mail from the judges list a few days ago and I responded to it with a few questions that I would really like answered. I'm only now getting to this cause finals are approaching and I'm very busy. Here is the e-mail and my response to it:

>===== Original Message From Lewis Lovhaug <ljlovhaug@mail.coolbits.nu> =====
>Since the ruling for Magical Scientist vs. Chained Traps came out, I'd just
>like to get some better clarification on how traps and chains work. Let's
>say, for a moment, that instead of a Waboku used on the Magical Scientist,
>it was a Ring of Destruction. Magical Scientist activates its effect and
>the opponent chains with Ring of Destruction. The chain goes like this:
>
>Magical Scientist -> Ring of Destruction
>
>With Ring of Destruction being the second link in the chain. When the chain
>resolves, Ring of Destruction destroys Magical Scientist. As such, when we
>get back to the first link, Magical Scientist is destroyed and no longer on
>the field. Wouldn't his effect disappear?
>
>Similarly, why couldn't similar tactics be used against other monsters whose
>effects supposedly get priority over the activation of trap cards, say like
>Chaos Emperor Dragon or Chaos Sorcerer?
>
>
>
>
>Answer:
>
>"Magicial Scientist's" effect would NOT disappear. Destroying "Magicial Scientist"
>with "Ring of Destruction" does not negate its effect.
>
>"Magicial Scientist's" effect does not require it remaining on the field. This
>makes using "Book of Moon," "Compulsory Evacuation Device," "Ring of Destruction,"
>etc. inneffective in stoping its effect. The effect will resolve without
>"Magicial Scientist" remaining on the field.
>
>
>Some monsters do need to remain on the field in order to resolve their effects.
>These monsters typically have an effect that requires them to be involved in
>some kind of action when their effect is resolved.
>
>Examples:
>"Invader of the Throne" is a monster that needs to remain on the field for
>its effect to resolve properly. If destroyed in a chain its effect will not
>resolve properly because the "Invader of the Throne" must be able to swap
>itself with the oppoenent's monster.
>
>
>"Paracite Paraside" wants to get shuffled into the opponent's Deck, but if is
>destroyed before its effect resolves it will not be able to do this.
>
>
>"Thousand-Eyes Restrict" has a cost effect that will "absorb" an opponent's
>monster. The problem for "Thousand-Eyes Restrict" is that its effect requires
>that it remain face-up on the field when its effect resolves, otherwise no harm
>comes to the targeted monster.
>The reason "Thousand-Eyes Restrict" must remain face-up on the field is so it
>can have the targeted monster equipped to it. This isn't possible if TER is
>no longer face-up on the field.
>
>
>
>Continuous Effects have trouble when removed from the field because these
>effects require the source to remain face-up on the field. For example,
>destroying "Jinzo", or turning it face-down, stops it from negating your
>Trap Cards because its effect is continous and requires "Jinzo" to remain
>face-up on the field.
>Continous effects act much like light switches in this way, turning on and off
>the first chance they get. Typically this occurs after being summoned, flipped
>by an attack, or flipped by a card effect. They can "turn on" inbetween steps
>of a chain, but they are not allowed to "turn on" during the resolution of
>a step within a chain.
>(Hence the ruling for Rope of Life Vs. Jinzo and why he gets the +800 ATK)
>
>
>Most monsters with Cost, Flip, and Multi-Trigger effects do not have this problem.
>They can put their effects onto the chain and then no longer concern themselves
>with remaining in play. "Marauding Captain," "Tribe-Infecting Virus,"
>"Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End," "Fiber Jar," "Cyber Jar," and
>"Dark Paladin" have effects that can still work despite them being destroyed
>in a chain.
>
>
>Now... there are some monsters in this game that may be exceptions.
>We will do our best to inform you when such issues arise.





In the future please send me E-mails on topics that are not incredibly obvious to level one judges. For example, It would be nice to know the exact order in which events occur when a monster is summoned/special summoned to the field. It would also be nice if I could have a clear-cut set of rules for determining if a card targets or not (as opposed to having to memorize every single card and if it targets or not). It would also be nice to know EXACTLY when a spell speed 2 card can and cannot be activated (EX: can player A activate ring of destruction on player B's monster while player B is thinking ab out what he/she wants to do next?). What is the order in which things happen when player A attacks player B's face down flip effect monster? Does a monster that has been destroyed and sent to the gravyard still take up a monster zone untill the attack step is over? How do the mechanics of this work?

Also, about the e-mail you sent me, you still havn't really pointed out the detailed mechanics of how cards like magical scientist/cannon soldier/exiled force interact with trap hole/ring of destruction/torrential tribute. You SAY the summoned monster's effect is chain link one and that the opponent's trap is chain link two, but at the same time you CLAIM the opponent activates trap hole etc. and the the player who summoned declares he/she is using the effect.

WHAT is the correct order in which things happen?
Ex: is the following legal - Player A summons magical scientist, player B waits to see what monster Player A will special summon by magical Scientist's effect if any, Player A activate's magical scientist's effect and declares ryu senshi as the target, now that player B knows what player A is using magical scientist's effect on he decides to activate trap hole to the initial summon.

EX: Player A summons Exiled Force, Player B activates Ring of Destruction and targets Exiled force... but wait, can he? IF what you claim is true and Exiled Force is chain link one then Exiled Force would not be on the field when Ring of Destruction is activated (because tributing Exiled Force is cost; costs are payed at activation) and thus player B can't activate Ring of Destruction and declare Exiled Force as the target because Exiled force does not exist on the field when activated.

EX: Player A summons magical scientist, Player B chains torrential tribute, Player a decides to summon Reaper on the Nightmare. What happens? You claim that Torrential is activated before Magical Scientist but at the same time you claim that Magical Scientist is chain link 1. Which is it? how does one rule a situation like this?

These are just a few examples of things that are not readily available to the general public and require un-official sources such as netrep or judges which have been known to be incorrect.
 
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EX no. 1 is legal and magical scientist effect would activate and the selected ryu senshi would remain on the field and return to the fusion deck during the end phase.
EX no. 2 when the player summons exiled force he chooses whether to activate his effect or not if he does the opponent cannot chain with ring of destruction because exiled force is no longer on the field.
EX no. 3 Magical scientist is destroyed before Reaper on the nightmare is summoned but reaper on the nightmare is still summoned after magical scientist is destroyed also it will return to the fusion deck at the end phase.
 
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trap hole was a bad example as magica scientist is not 1000+ attack, lets just pretend Mystic Plasma zone and Witch's Apprentice are on the field when Magical Scientist is summoned.

So you can wait to see what monster your opponent tributes with cannon soldier or what monster your opponent gets with magic scientist and then use trap hole etc.?
 
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1. Magical Scientist doesn't pick a Fusion Monster until it resolves, too late for the opponent to activate anything in response.

2. The priority question you're asking is about Remedies when the rules are broken-- not about the rules themselves.   Its up to the Judge to decide how to remedy it.  When following the Rules: the effect of the summoned monster is always activated first.

3. Torrential Tribute resolves first blowing up the field, Magical Scientist resolves second, bringing Spirit Reaper to the field.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
1. Magical Scientist doesn't pick a Fusion Monster until it resolves, too late for the opponent to activate anything in response.

2. The priority question you're asking is about Remedies when the rules are broken-- not about the rules themselves.   Its up to the Judge to decide how to remedy it.  When following the Rules: the effect of the summoned monster is always activated first.

3. Torrential Tribute resolves first blowing up the field, Magical Scientist resolves second, bringing Spirit Reaper to the field.
Click to expand...

-since when does ,magical scientist not target?
-in response to your second answer: what?
-where did you get spirit reaper from?
 
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Just to clear up.

The ruling for "Magical Scientist" now states that you *DO* choose the fusion monster when you activate the effect so the opponent does know what you are targeting before it resolves. (If you check the mailing list, you'll see Curtis stated this more recently than the older ruling).

- A
 
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Nak44 said:
they are supposed to declare target before you can chain if im not wrong.

hope that helps.
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I didn't think you could chain trap hole to anything, thought trap hole could only be activated in response to a summon and be the first link in a chain.

Also, if Nak44 is correct, does what mean your chaining trap hole to magical scientist's effect?

This is where the whole order of things breaks down and stops making sense to me.
 
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1.   Polymerization doesn't target either,  Neither Does Witch of the Black Forest, Sangan, Mystic Tomato, Thunder Dragon, Emissary of the Afterlife:  -- I can not think of an effect that targets a card in either deck.

Densetsu_x:  The closest thing i found was a question about Ryu-Senshi and Waboku.. in the scenario it appeared that Magical Scientist was targetting.. but it wasn't said that Magical Scientist targets

2. (next message)

3.  Sorry, Reaper on the Nightmare
 
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You cant chain trap hole to an effect what i meant is that your opponent summons magical scientist he has to declare if he will use his effect or not .after he declares you can activate trap hole.
 
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Rules Versus Remedies:

Player A Summons Chaos Emperor Dragon.
Player B responds with Bottomless Trap Hole.

Player B broke the rules.  Player A is supposed to have the first chance to activate an effect after a monster is summoned.  Now its up to the Judges to decide how to remedy it.  The "talked about" remedy in this situation is that Player a can decide to activate Chaos Emperor Dragon anyway and place it as Chain Link one--That has nothing to do with the rules, the rules were broken and its simply a way to fix the game.

Now if i were judging, i would look at Player B's cards, (including face-down cards and cards in the hand).  If it seemed in Player B's advantage for Player A to activate Chaos Emperor Dragons effect [e.g a face Down Witch of the Black Forest .. and an Elephant Statue in hand]   I would assume that Player B activated Bottomless Trap Hole to trick Player A into using Chaos Emperor Dragon--and would award Player A the Duel.


What the rules are:

Player A Summons a monster:
(if there are no trigger effect happening) Player A may activate the effect of a face-up card or activate a spell speed 2 card now or Pass priority to Player B.   The effect of the monster summoned for example is activated first and if either player decides to chain the Monster Effect is Chain Link 1.. the chained card is spell speed 2.  It works the same as any other chain
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
I didn't think you could chain trap hole to anything, thought trap hole could only be activated in response to a summon and be the first link in a chain.
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Nak44 said:
You cant chain trap hole to an effect what i meant is that your opponent summons magical scientist he has to declare if he will use his effect or not .after he declares you can activate trap hole.
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You may chain Trap Hole to any card that was activated in response to a summon.

For example:

Player A summons Archfiend Soldier:
Player A activates Ring of Destruction
Player B activates Trap Hole    (in an attempt to destroy Archfiend Soldier, prevent RofD from resolving)
Player A activates Book of Moon (to save Archfiend from being destroyed)
Player B activates Trap Hole (to destroy Archfiend Soldier before it gets flipped face-down)
Player A activates Mystic Wok  tributing Archfiend Soldier  (saving it from Trap hole and getting some Life Poitns)
Player B does not respond
Player A does not respond.

That's a legal chain involving Trap Hole.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Now if i were judging, i would look at Player B's cards, (including face-down cards and cards in the hand).  If it seemed in Player B's advantage for Player A to activate Chaos Emperor Dragons effect [e.g a face Down Witch of the Black Forest .. and an Elephant Statue in hand]   I would assume that Player B activated Bottomless Trap Hole to trick Player A into using Chaos Emperor Dragon--and would award Player A the Duel.
Click to expand...

Ehh, I don't see that as right. You can't really let his face down cards make your decision.

I agree with what bishop said as it would go face down with a warning to the player because of a 'procedural error'.
 
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bishop said:
But you're activating Trap Hole to what? You would be penalized for a procedural error and Trap Hole returned to a face-down position because it was activated illegally.

As mentioned above, Trap Hole -- in relation to Magical Scientist -- is a bad example to use. Try something more along the lines of Torrential Tribute.
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lets just make it eatgaboon :D
so i will change my answer
You cant chain eatgaboon to an effect what i meant is that your opponent summons magical scientist he has to declare if he will use his effect or not .after he declares you can activate eatgaboon.
 
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bishop said:
You would be penalized for a procedural error and Trap Hole returned to a face-down position because it was activated illegally.
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Which makes a lot more sense than all this priorty remedy stuff.

Though i personally would like to see a policy where a falsely revealed card must be played at the first opportunity--Which the priority "budding" in would achieve.

Envoy of toilet said:
Ehh, I don't see that as right. You can't really let his face down cards make your decision.

I agree with what bishop said as it would go face down with a warning to the player because of a 'procedural error'.
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Actus Rheus  -- Mens Rhea

We know there was a guilty act, but what about the thought behind it.  Was it simply a Procedural Error, or was it cheating?

Falsely revealing a card intentionally for the purpose of affecting your opponents actions is cheating.  Looking at the face-down cards and cards in hand allows me to assess the Mens Rhea of the situation.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Actus Rheus  -- Mens Rhea

We know there was a guilty act, but what about the thought behind it.  Was it simply a Procedural Error, or was it cheating?

Falsely revealing a card on purpose for the purpose of affecting your opponents actions is cheating.  Looking at the face-down cards and cards in hand allows me to assess the Mens Rhea of the situation.
Click to expand...
The warnings will stack if this type of activity is reoccuring and wind up with forfeiting matches or ultimately being removed from from the tournament. Also there is no ruling I've seen that actually makes it "illegal" to reveal your cards to your opponent. That would typically fall under incredibly overconfident and arrogant instead of cheating in an attempt to force your opponent into making a mistake.
 
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anthonyj said:
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Actus Rheus  -- Mens Rhea

We know there was a guilty act, but what about the thought behind it.  Was it simply a Procedural Error, or was it cheating?

Falsely revealing a card on purpose for the purpose of affecting your opponents actions is cheating.  Looking at the face-down cards and cards in hand allows me to assess the Mens Rhea of the situation.
Click to expand...
The warnings will stack if this type of activity is reoccuring and wind up with forfeiting matches or ultimately being removed from from the tournament.  Also there is no ruling I've seen that actually makes it "illegal" to reveal your cards to your opponent.  That would typically fall under incredibly overconfident and arrogant instead of cheating in an attempt to force your opponent into making a mistake.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think it is...let me find the quote...
 
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Nak44 said:
bishop said:
But you're activating Trap Hole to what? You would be penalized for a procedural error and Trap Hole returned to a face-down position because it was activated illegally.

As mentioned above, Trap Hole -- in relation to Magical Scientist -- is a bad example to use. Try something more along the lines of Torrential Tribute.
Click to expand...
lets just make it eatgaboon :D
so i will change my answer
You cant chain eatgaboon to an effect what i meant is that your opponent summons magical scientist he has to declare if he will use his effect or not .after he declares you can activate eatgaboon.
Click to expand...


Hahahahahahahaha! Eatgaboon!

Anyway, thank you all for your clarification. Also, to curtis, the person who sends out the e-mails, please make the differance between how things are supposed to happen and how to remedy a situation clear.
 
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