exiled force versus trap hole versus botomless trap hole

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woltarr

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Exiled Force
Attrib: Earth
Type: Warrior/Effect
Level:4
Atk: 1000
Def: 1000
Tribute this face-up card on your side of the field to destroy 1 monster on the field.

Bottomless Trap Hole
Group: Trap Card
Type: Trap
When your opponent Normal Summons, Flip Summons, or Special Summons a monster with an ATK of 1500 or more, the monster is destroyed and removed from play.

Trap Hole
Group: Trap Card
Type: Trap
If the ATK of a monster summoned by your opponent (excluding Special Summon) is 1000 points or more, the monster is destroyed.


scenario 1 : exiled force versus trap hole

player 1 sumon EF

player 2 activate TH

player 1 ask priority and activate EF effct

now , since Th is a targeting effct , it should have a target upon the activation of tha card

but player 2 rushed the game activating TH withou asking first if player 1 would like to activate EF effct

may i assum that TH is ilegally activated thus forcing player 2 to place it face down once more?


scenario 2 EF versus BTH

player 1 has gaia power in the field

player 1 sumon EF

Ef has now 1500 atck value because of gaia power effct

player 2 activate BTH without asking player 1 if he would like to activate EF effct

player 1 ask for priority and actvate the efct of EF

now i ask

since BTh is not a targeting effct it is not a ilegal activation since it dont require a target upon its activation but just the knoledge that a sumoned occurred right?

thus it will not be forced to be place face down once more

so the chain will happen this way

link 1 EF efct
link2 BTH effct

and BTH would fizzles as a result

the whole point is

TH could be saved if priority is called because it caused a "kara uchi" but not not BTH since it dont require a target thus would have to be resolved anyway "wasting " it

thanks for the imputs

woltarr
 
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Basically with Exiled Force, since he tributes himself as a cost, he won't be on the field anymore to be Trap Hole-ed (or BTH-ed if Gaia Power is on the field) assuming the turn player uses the effect right away (which 99.99% of the time they will do). So again, if you're the one with the Trap Hole, ask first if they want to use the effect. That's the PROPER way to play it.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Basically with Exiled Force, since he tributes himself as a cost, he won't be on the field anymore to be Trap Hole-ed (or BTH-ed if Gaia Power is on the field) assuming the turn player uses the effect right away (which 99.99% of the time they will do). So again, if you're the one with the Trap Hole, ask first if they want to use the effect. That's the PROPER way to play it.
Click to expand...


dentetsu

my point is

how targeted and non targeted effct behave when a "kara uchi" occurs

Torrential Tribute still would resolve since it is can be activated because a sumon ocurred and it can destroy the remaing monsters on the field

BTh is also a non targeting efct like TT

so BTh is allowed to resolve like TT or it would cause a "kara uchi" and be forced to its previous position?

woltarr
 
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In both cases, since the non-turn player did not wait and see if the turn player would use priority for "Exiled Force"s effect, a 'rewind' would occur. (I don't want to use the word replay here.)

The player that activated "Trap Hole" and/or "Bottomless Trap Hole" would NOT be bound to activating it again if the turn player claims priority. They could simply choose not to activate either and let "Exiled Force"s effect resolve. Of course, they have just showed the opponent what trap card(s) they have set, so they have lost some advantage.

In your example with "Torrential Tribute", it would be the same scenario. The non-turn player could choose not to activate "Torrential Tribute", or they could choose to activate it to clear the field.

Hope this helps.
 
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skey23 said:
In both cases, since the non-turn player did not wait and see if the turn player would use priority for "Exiled Force"s effect, a 'rewind' would occur. (I don't want to use the word replay here.)

The player that activated "Trap Hole" and/or "Bottomless Trap Hole" would NOT be bound to activating it again if the turn player claims priority. They could simply choose not to activate either and let "Exiled Force"s effect resolve. Of course, they have just showed the opponent what trap card(s) they have set, so they have lost some advantage.

In your example with "Torrential Tribute", it would be the same scenario. The non-turn player could choose not to activate "Torrential Tribute", or they could choose to activate it to clear the field.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


hummm

my point is

a targeting effct needs a correct target upon its activation

if EF leaves the field, it is not possible determine a target upon the activation of TH

so it is a ilegal activation and it must be placed in its previous position

it is not a choice that you can do; activate or not because the use of priority invalided a scenario where TH could be legally activated

BUT non targeting effcts are not submited to this restriction once a target is choosen upon the resolution of the card

so i say

"non targeting effct are not submited to the laws of "kara uchi" and they activation must continue and thus possibly resolving without effct"

cards with non targeting effct would have no choice of be rewinded to its previous position

got my point?

woltarr
 
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woltarr said:
got my point?
Click to expand...
Yes, I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say/explain.

I will 'redo' your given scenarios using "Trap Hole", "Bottomless Trap Hole" and "Torrential Tribute".

Scenario 1:
Player A has a set "Trap Hole" and 1 monster on their side of the field.
Player B has no monsters on the field and "Exiled Force" in their hand.
It's Player B's turn and they summon "Exiled Force".
Player A immediately activates "Trap Hole" w/o giving Player B the opportunity to use Priority to activate "Exiled Force"s effect.
Player B claims the right to use Priority with "Exiled Force".
Now a game state 'rewind'/'replay' occurs back to the point where the monster was summoned. So the activated "Trap Hole" basically returns face-down as if it were never activated in the first place. "Trap Hole" doesn't sit there in a limbo or 'paused' state waiting for Player B to use Priority.
Player B uses "Exiled Force"s effect and targets Player A's only monster.
Now, Player A has the chance to respond/chain to "Exiled Force"s effect with the set "Trap Hole", BUT since "Exiled Force" is no longer on the field, there is nothing for "Trap Hole" to destroy, so it cannot be activated.

Scenario 2:
Player A has a set "Bottomless Trap Hole" and 1 monster on their side of the field.
Player B has no monsters on the field, an active "Gaia Power" on the field, and "Exiled Force" in their hand.
It's Player B's turn and they summon "Exiled Force" who becomes 1500 ATK due to "Gaia Power".
Player A immediately activates "Bottomless Trap Hole" w/o giving Player B the opportunity to use Priority to activate "Exiled Force"s effect.
Player B claims the right to use Priority with "Exiled Force".
Now a game state 'rewind'/'replay' occurs back to the point where the monster was summoned. So the activated "Bottomless Trap Hole" basically returns face-down as if it were never activated in the first place. "Bottomless Trap Hole" doesn't sit there in a limbo or 'paused' state waiting for Player B to use Priority.
Player B uses "Exiled Force"s effect and targets Player A's only monster.
Now, Player A has the chance to respond/chain to "Exiled Force"s effect with the set "Bottomless Trap Hole",which, in this case, as DaGuy stated, "cannot be activated if there is not a monster on the field that it could destroy".

Scenario 3:
Player A has a set "Torrential Tribute" and 1 monster on their side of the field.
Player B has 3 monsters on the field and "Exiled Force" in their hand.
It's Player B's turn and they summon "Exiled Force".
Player A immediately activates "Torrential Tribute" w/o giving Player B the opportunity to use Priority to activate "Exiled Force"s effect.
Player B claims the right to use Priority with "Exiled Force".
Now a game state 'rewind'/'replay' occurs back to the point where the monster was summoned. So the activated "Torrential Tribute" basically returns face-down as if it were never activated in the first place. "Torrential Tribute" doesn't sit there in a limbo or 'paused' state waiting for Player B to use Priority.
Player B uses "Exiled Force"s effect and targets Player A's only monster.
Now, Player A has the chance to respond/chain to "Exiled Force"s effect with the set "Torrential Tribute", which, in this case, WILL resolve properly since it doesn't target "Exiled Force" and it doesn't care if "Exiled Force" remains on the field or not.

The whole point I was trying to make with YOUR given scenarios was that because the turn player chose to use Priority, it didn't matter that the opponent had already activated "TH", "BTH", or "TT", since the game would 'rewind' to BEFORE they were activated in the first place and the opponent would then be allowed to either activate them or not.

So, YES, it IS a choice you can do because the use of Priority 'reset' the game state back to before the trap card was activated.

Again..I hope this helps you to better understand.
 
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