Exiled Force vs. continuous Spells

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cbitguru

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Am I correct that you can actually chain Trap Hole to Exiled Force, when its position is changed, when it is summoned, by the effect of an already activated continuous spell...such as Level Limit Area B or Stumbling?

There is a continuous effect that must be applied when Exiled Force is summoned, thus creating a chain that Trap Hole can be a link on before the turn player's priority is ever an issue.

Yes/no?
 
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cbitguru said:
Wait, in general you can? This would be the first I've heard of this! OR are you talking about the continous spell condition?
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Since the turn player must place Exiled Force in defense when it is summoned, he cannot immediately activate his Ignition Effect, and the opponent has a chance to activate Trap Hole.

In general, if there is a Continuous Spell or Trap that asserts its effect upon a monster being summoned, the Turn Player must react to that effect before they can activate any Ignition Effects, as they are Spell Speed 1, and cannot interrupt (or be chained to) the effect of a Continuous Spell or Trap Card.
 
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I think you might have read his statement a bit too quickly Woo0.

Basically if an event is triggered automatically as a result of a summon, the turn player loses Priority to activate an effect (because a chain has started and with the case of Exiled Force, you cannot manually chain a Speed 1 effect to another effect).

Now this only occurs if an event uses the chain. Some examples that do:
King Tiger Wanghu
Stumbling

If either of those are on the field, their effects would activate when Exiled Force is summoned so you could respond with Trap Hole at that time (though in the case of King Tiger, it would be redundant).

Now, Level Limit - Area B is different. It does NOT use the chain so what happens is that Exiled Force is summoned, and put to defense position. However, since it didn't use the chain, the Turn Player did not lose priority and as such can tribute Exiled Force off before you can respond.

The key is to check the rulings to see if the card effect would use the chain. If it does, then yes, that will interrupt things such that you could Trap Hole Exiled Force. If it doesn't, then no. Priority is retained and the Turn Player can tribute away.

(Minor Edit: This was being written up in response to the intial response).
 
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Can you post the ruling that would differentiate between Stumbling and LLAB? I am having a hard time seeing the difference, unless it was just a prior ruling stated as such.

Both seem to create the condition...why doesn't LLAB create the chain?
 
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densetsu_x said:
I think you might have read his statement a bit too quickly Woo0.

Basically if an event is triggered automatically as a result of a summon, the turn player loses Priority to activate an effect (because a chain has started and with the case of Exiled Force, you cannot manually chain a Speed 1 effect to another effect).

Now this only occurs if an event uses the chain. Some examples that do:
King Tiger Wanghu
Stumbling

If either of those are on the field, their effects would activate when Exiled Force is summoned so you could respond with Trap Hole at that time (though in the case of King Tiger, it would be redundant).

Now, Level Limit - Area B is different. It does NOT use the chain so what happens is that Exiled Force is summoned, and put to defense position. However, since it didn't use the chain, the Turn Player did not lose priority and as such can tribute Exiled Force off before you can respond.

The key is to check the rulings to see if the card effect would use the chain. If it does, then yes, that will interrupt things such that you could Trap Hole Exiled Force. If it doesn't, then no. Priority is retained and the Turn Player can tribute away.

(Minor Edit: This was being written up in response to the intial response).
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I was only really talking about Stumbling, which is a Trigger Effect. I know Level Limit - Area B doesnt use the Chain, which is why I said if a effect asserts itself, meaning "activates", then the player cannot chain to that effect with another Spell Speed 1 Effect.
 
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Right from the FAQ:


"¢ The effect of "Level Limit - Area B" does not use the chain, it is a continuous effect.

"¢ The effect of "Stumbling" goes on a chain immediately after a monster is Summoned. As a mandatory Trigger Effect, "Stumbling" is always on the chain before optional Trigger Effects ("Mobius the Frost Monarch") or chained Spell & Trap Cards ("Trap Hole").

As for WHY one uses the chain the other doesn't... Level Limit - Area B places a condition on all monsters on the field. Stumbling only applies to a specific instance (a summoning in this case).
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I was only really talking about Stumbling, which is a Trigger Effect. I know Level Limit - Area B doesnt use the Chain, which is why I said if a effect asserts itself, meaning "activates", then the player cannot chain to that effect with another Spell Speed 1 Effect.
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Like I said, it was in response to your intial statement which made it seem like it wasn't a difference, not to mention, both effects will "assert" themselves when a monster is summoned (unless the monster was "Spell Canceller"). Just seemed vague that's all.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Like I said, it was in response to your intial statement which made it seem like it wasn't a difference, not to mention, both effects will "assert" themselves when a monster is summoned (unless the monster was "Spell Canceller"). Just seemed vague that's all.
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Not really. Level Limit - Area B is like walking into a room where the light is already on, and you just react to it. Stumbling is like walking into a room with a Security Light that senses motion and turns itself on, forcing a reaction.

Level Limit - Area B would almost go unnoticed, as it just causes the player to position their monster on the field, while Stumbling is the "surprise" that happens because of the way it activates (it ONLY happens when a monster is summoned, and not when it is flipped face-up by an effect, like "Book of Taiyou").
 
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cbitguru said:
Can you post the ruling that would differentiate between Stumbling and LLAB? I am having a hard time seeing the difference, unless it was just a prior ruling stated as such.

Both seem to create the condition...why doesn't LLAB create the chain?
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LLAB doesn't address when a monster is Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned or Special Summoned like Stumbling. Stumbling places a condition on ANY monster that is summoned, turning it to defense position, thus creating a chain. Level Limit-Area B does not place a condition on ANY monster, only Level 4 or higher and does not create a condition that the monster must be changed to defense once it is summoned. That is why LLAB doesn't use the chain.
 
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Wow, you guys like to argue about the silliest things. Symantics!! All of it! It's like Woo0 and den X going at it on the other site! I think some of the problem may be that we must type quickly and don't get our terminaology correct, and some is just that...terminology.

Can we suffice it to say that Stumbling Triggers (it has the magic word "When" in it, that, while it does not always have to mean Trigger, does set up an activation timing trigger here) and that LLAB does not and (although not specificaly because of that) it is continously applied to any and all Level 4 or higher Monsters om the field (unless, of course, one is uneffected by such things, or negates, or, whatever....).

You see, if we are thorough, and try to cover all our bases, we are sure to get bogged down in al the exceptions and details. But, what mucks things up the most is when we try to defend ourselves, or our answers. If we keep it about the answer and work with, rather than against; talk to, rather than at each other, we might reach an appropriate answer.

I do appreciate, though, the maturity and respectfulness of your disagreements. Koodos on the lot of you.

Now....cbitguru, has your question been answered satisfactorily? Or is there something more to be cleared up?
 
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Hey, I don't argue symantics. I'll leave that for DaGuy and Densetsu. I try to make it easy, with as few terminology words as possible.

When you don't understand, you ask more questions. That's how it usually goes, and then things get clarified further. A answer should be part of a teaching process. My answer was purposely vague, as to promote a response from the Thread Author, because a simple yes or no answer wasnt going to be enough.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Hey, I don't argue symantics. I'll leave that for DaGuy and Densetsu. I try to make it easy, with as few terminology words as possible.

When you don't understand, you ask more questions. That's how it usually goes, and then things get clarified further. A answer should be part of a teaching process. My answer was purposely vague, as to promote a response from the Thread Author, because a simple yes or no answer wasnt going to be enough.
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I wasn't arguing semantics. I merely looked at his question (which incidentally had him lumping Level Limit - Area B and Stumbling together which meant he viewed the two as using the same kind of mechanic, as further evidenced by his later question asking about why does one use the chain and the other doesn't) and then looked your first answer (which indeed was a simple yes/no answer) which made it look like you were saying that "Yes, you can activate Trap Hole if either Stumbling or LL-AB was on the field." Now, unless they changed the rules on Priorities in regards to LL-AB and I missed the memo, that wouldn't be the case. All I was doing was elaborating upon the conditions which Trap Hole could be activated, and that would be if a Chain was triggered automatically. Nothing more than that and CERTAINLY wasn't looking to open another thread disertation over the background mechanics of the two cards which really starts moving away from his question.
 
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densetsu_x said:
(which indeed was a simple yes/no answer)
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Right. And it wasn't enough. It's kind of like asking, "Do you start the game with 5 cards, or 6 cards in hand?" To which the answer would be, "Yes". Now, anyone who knows the game at its basic level knows that both players draw 5 cards, and only the turn player will draw a sixth card to start the game.

Had he not asked anything else after that yes answer, he would have already known what I was talking about, or, he would have asked for a clarification, which he did.

Most of the time, you never know how much they know, and how little want to know.
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Wow! This thread is done! Anybody???

<walks off shaking his head>
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What makes you say that? You still don't know if he understands. This thread wasnt for you. It was for the individual that posted it. If they are entirely understanding of how their question has been answered, then yeah, it is done. But it was done a long time ago for someone who ALREADY understands, and comments such as yours dont really help.
 
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Thanks for the explanation. Wasn't thinking about the difference between the two, but as a big fan of the stall, I appreciate the time taken to explain the rationale.


Asked and answered, excellently as usual.
 
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