Face-Down Monster cards

A

Azatoth

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A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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Azatoth said:
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?
Click to expand...

I have a German FAQ file with a lot of the Game Mechanics about Yu-Gi-Oh.
I found the ruling about The Creator Incarnate and was really surprised.

One chapter in my FAQ's stated that face-down monsters have no type, effect, and so on...
I was really surprised about this ruling...

so I changed some lines in this chapter of the FAQ's to face-down monsters have no effects (unless they specify something different < Gardna > OR their effects include offering them from the field).

You can check if the monster had an effect after you tributed it, so you know, if it was legal or not (it is not all too useful to just offer a monster you weren't allowed to -> your opponent would gain an advantage o_O).

This is still no GOOD reason, but - at least in my eyes - it's SOME kind of explanation....

soul :cool:
 
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*rofl* Ich erinnere mich jetzt, wo ich deinen Namen lese, dass ich dein faq.pdf auf meinem Computer habe (und es natürlich auch durchgelese habe *g*) und von genau dort die Information habe, dass face-down Monster kein Attribut, Typ oder ähnliches haben.​

(His FAQ provided me with the information that face-down monsters don't have a Type, Effect or whatever, for those that are curious or start to believe in conspiracies easily ;) )

Btw, wo in Deutschland bist du denn?

Anyway, this is what I mean, how can they have an effect when they don't have anything else, not even a name. (I still do believe that this is the case)

This whole crap startet with Big Shield Gardna, who is likely to be mentioned in this issue. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether his effect text states that his effect is activated when he's face-down, because he shouldn't have an effect at all at this point of time, so I don't care what the effect text says.

Can you tribute a monster without reason and then look if it had an effect and then decide to use it?
Do you have to decide what you are using the tribute for before or after tributing? In a duel you actually have to say "I tribute this card to [enter purpose of tributing]". But Soulwarriors explanation is that you can tribute a monster whenever you want, without a purpose, and thus getting to use a face-down monsters effect.
But it is it's effect that's enabling it to be tributed at all, and it's face-down, so no tribute-enabling effect here, this is like I see it.
 
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As for Big Shield Gardna, the timing for this cards effect will trigger at any point this card is targetted by a Spell card while face-down. It has a trigger point. Certain effects can only take place when one thing influences another.

As for Kaibaman and effects alike, why wouldn't it? The action of tributing Kaibaman, will enable it's effect to apply regardless of what position it was in.

For most effects that tributes themselves such as Exiled Force or Red-Eyes B. Chick, state that must be tributed/offered while face-up on the field.

As for Kaibaman, does not state that. So tributing while face-down has no impact whether the effect can take place or not.
 
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As for Big Shield Gardna, the timing for this cards effect will trigger at any point this card is targetted by a Spell card while face-down. It has a trigger point. Certain effects can only take place when one thing influences another.
Click to expand...
Big Shield Gardna must actually be flipped face-up when targeted face-down, and then it's effect will negate the targeting effect.

You are correct as far as i can see regarding Kaibaman or Kaiser Sea Horse etc. unless it is a continuous effect (requiring it to be face-up), in which it would only count as 1 tribute while face-down. I can't find any ruling on it so far.

There is a bit of inconsistancy and confusion when dealing with face-up or face-down monsters and Tributing effects or mechanics.
 
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Your explanation on Bid Shield Gardna makes sense, somehow, I think, hopefully *argh*

Ok, I know that there are cards that have an effect that can be activated while they are not face-up on the field, liek REBMD or Theinen. This also seems strange to me, but I'll think about it.
What I don't understand is how you can tribute him using his effect while he is face down. Can you use the effect of a face-down monster *wonder*, how can this be, maybe it's just my wrong way of understanding game mechanics in this case, so please enlighten me. Sorry if this annoys you :rolleyes: (Or maybe we just agree on that there is indeed quite some inconsistency with f/d and f/u and tributing and so on...maybe that's a problem of the game: using unique effects, like REBMD, Theinen, possibly Kaibaman, if he can be tributed f/d for his effect, and many more, they created unique cards with cool effects you just see once or twice, but when this doesn't happen on the basis of organized rules describing all possible concepts and mechanics thus allowing the deduction of rulings for every situation, it'll get very complicated

Now does an f/d monster have an effect, and what about Attribute, Type etc?
 
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I understand the Kaiser Sea Horse, Double Coston part, but Kaibaman says: "Tribute this card to Special Summon 1 "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" from your hand.", so how can you Tribute it for its effect, if it is face-down?????

You cannot activate a face-down Cannon Soldier to tribute itself for its effect (HORRIBLE example, but I cannot think of any other applicable ones), so how can Kaibaman do the same??

-chaosruler
 
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When it comes down to a tribute for the effect of Kaibaman, it doesn't matter if the card is face-up or face-down.

In order to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon, you must tribute "this card"

Hmmm... I can't explain by Game Mechanics, but by the card you control. You are to Flip Summon Magician of Faith because you are able to do so, you know the effect so you Flip it face-up to get the effect. You, the player, the controller of Kaibaman have control of this monster and the ability to Tribute it for it's own effect to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon from your hand.

As I stated before, when it comes down to a tribute for the effect of Kaibaman, it doesn't matter if the card is face-up or face-down. You are the controller of Kaibaman so you know what effects are face-down that you control, so tributing it shouldn't be an issue.
 
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well, if you have performed a summon already, and Strike I appreciate you trying, then how can you just activate it while face-down? Also, since Divine Wrath can negate it, doesn't it need to be face-up?

Wait, Divine Wrath can negate Graveyard activations (DOH), and I wrote the fricking Divine Wrath article!! CROIKEY!

Anyway, novastar, for Big Shield Gardna, the text states:
Big Shield Gardna
Effect Monster (Warrior / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 100 / DEF 2600)
Negate the activation of a Spell Card that designates this 1 face-down monster. At that time, flip this card into face-up Defense Position. If this card is attacked, change the Battle Position of this card to Attack Position at the end of the Damage Step.

So wouldn't it work if Mind Control was used on it, while it's f/d? Since the card text specifically says so.

-chaosruler
 
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This how tributing works for all of the above mentioned cards and all 5-6 star monsters: a monster is face down in turn 1. On your second turn, provided the tribute is still on the field, you can use that monster on the field, even though it is face down, to summon a 5-6 star monster, or in the case of Kaiba Man, The Creator Incarnate, Kaiser Seahorse, Double Coston, or several other monsters, a higher level monster. You can also use your turn's normal summon to bring Red Eyes B. Chick, Kaibaman, or The Creator Incarnate to the field, then use their effect to special summon the monster listed in their text. I dont understand the confusion.
 
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chaosruler said:
well, if you have performed a summon already, and Strike I appreciate you trying, then how can you just activate it while face-down? Also, since Divine Wrath can negate it, doesn't it need to be face-up?

Wait, Divine Wrath can negate Graveyard activations (DOH), and I wrote the fricking Divine Wrath article!! CROIKEY!

-chaosruler
Click to expand...

Of course you can Divine Wrath Kaibaman. But note that Kaibaman is not a Graveyard Effect, it's a Field effect much like Exiled Force.

Player1: tributes Kaibaman and states to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon from hand (note that Kaibaman is now in the graveyard face-up)
Player2: chains Divine Wrath to the effect of Kaibaman (which is perfectly fine)
 
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I was asking, if you had used your turn summon to set Kaibaman, then how can you just up and sacrifice him, because you cannot just offer tributes for no reason (you don't know it's a Kaibaman because it's face-down), and your turn opportunity to sacrifice for a summon is gone. Is there some way to explain it without appearing condescending?? (Kidding, GMonkey) I get what you were saying, but I said that I AGREE with the Kaiser Sea Horse, etc. part, just not Kaibaman, The Creator Incarnate, etc. Also, Red-Eyes B. Chick must be sent to the graveyard while face-up to summon a REBD.

-chaosruler
 
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My question is how can you legally tribute it, since it's tribute effect says tribute this card, when face-down cards have no effects, unless specifically stated

-chaosruler
 
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My BrAiN!! FRieD!! LiKe Chicken!! AiIyYyEe!! I can't think of a logical reason.

LoL, these ruling sure can be killer.

Player1 has a 1 set face-down monster, knowing and also the controller of the 1 face-down card, Player1 has every aspect and control of this card, and also control of the effect. So Player1 can simply Tribute knowing that the effect can take place, because Kaibaman allows that.
 
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