Face-Down Monster cards

A

Azatoth

New Member
A debate started here:

http://www.igforums.com/showthread.php?p=53806

It's partly about me not understanding why face-down monster cards do have effects at all, as they should be without Type, Attribute and effect in my opinion.

So how can you tribute a face-down Kaibaman or The Creator Incarnate for a BEWD or Creator? Why can you send a face-down Beast-Type monster to the graveyard for Manticore of Darkness' effect, as they should not have a type at all (as far as I know and believe).

So can anyone explain why you should be able to use The Creator Incarnate's effect while face-down to tribute him and summon The Creator from your hand in particular, and how face-down monster cards are treated regarding Type, Attribute, Level and Effect in general?

Thanks.
 
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Can't they be considered Ignition Effect monsters when they are tributed while face-down as a "cost" then is placed face-up in the "graveyard" making them Ignition Effect monsters?
 
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I'm wondering if this would also apply to Hand of Nephthys. The card doesn't state she has to be face up and just like Kaibaman and The Creator Incarnate, she is tributing herself (and another card) to special summon another monster. I've always flip summoned her (after being brought out by Apprentice Magician) before attempting to use her effect due to the face-down/no effect rule...but this has me questioning that, and while Kaibaman probably won't see too much competitive play, Hand of Nephthys probably will...so hopefully the List will come back soon with an answer on Kaibaman.
 
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:confused: As I said this whole thing of tributing them while face down to activate their effect just seems odd to me, especially when you can't tribute a face down Exiled Force for it's effect, what's next, using the effect of a face down Destiny Board to place I,N, A and L on the field?
 
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Man, this is definitely another one for the list. Can't say I've ever heard of a face-down ignition effect, yet, just by reading that The Creator Incarnate ruling, makes you think they can exist now. Though if they are counted as continuous effects instead, what a way to get around Divine Wrath.

Brain... hurt... very much bad... aye yai yai, no es bueno!
 
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Well, diava, I agree with you, because Kaibaman seems like an Ignition effect to me.

Also, a question, why does it matter if Kaibaman is continuous (besides Divine Wrath), because a face-down Jinzo doesn't negate traps, so how can a face-down Kaibaman tribute himself?? (Sorry, bad example, I know)

-chaosruler
 
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I'll admit I'm still learning the mechanics of the game, but could there be something weird going on where the effect of these face down monsters are getting their effects once they hit the graveyard? That seems odd to me considering usually there has to be an ignition or something to warrant you arbitrarily tributing a monster to the graveyard.

Another weird one for me, which got me thinking about the face down-monster gig was Deck Devastation Virus. If you summon Fusiler using his effect, his ATK is halved. If you then Book of Moon him, his effect resets, and now he's at 2800 (still face down) but you can use Fusiler as a tribute for DDV. But how do you know what the attack is, since its face down?

The recent surge of these face down effects that can be used makes me think maybe the game is starting to evolve slightly again. It seems to happen every so often in the game. Who would have thought back in the LOB and MRD days that there would be ritual monsters, chaos monsters, and nomi monsters in the mix, which present their own set of rules that "bend" the traditional functionality that we see in the game and are used to. The whole priority thing is another one that we've had to grow into as well.
 
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Well, Deck Devastation Virus is using an outside card effect to check current attack of f/d monsters to make sure that there is a legal monster to sac as a cost, when it is activated. Also, my question arises from the fact that I thought that face-down monsters have no effects, unless otherwise stated as such, so how can you tribute him while he is face-down

KONAMI GA SOU ITTERUKARA!!!!

-chaosruler
 
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chaosruler said:
Well, diava, I agree with you, because Kaibaman seems like an Ignition effect to me.

Also, a question, why does it matter if Kaibaman is continuous (besides Divine Wrath), because a face-down Jinzo doesn't negate traps, so how can a face-down Kaibaman tribute himself?? (Sorry, bad example, I know)

-chaosruler
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Well, for one thing, we know for a certainty that certain effects apply only while face-up because thier effects atualy state "while this card is face-up on the field" or "offer this face-up card as a tribute" like in the cases of Cannon Soldier, Exiled Force and Jinzo. We've made a face-up rule, but it appears in most cases it that theses effects are all stateing that they must be face-up. And for others there appears to be a conditional trigger that requires them to be face-up to initiate thier effect.

Perhaps (there goes that limb again) you can offer a monster as a tribute as long as there is there is an effect that it appropriatley accompanies on arrival in the Graveyard and not at the moment of tribute. That would allow you to tribute for an effect that WILL be there after tributing and not for 'no reason.'
 
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That's what I wanted to tell you... o_O

If you WOULD HAVE offered a monster 'just for nothing', your opponent would see that and you would have to put the monster face-down where it was...
this should be clear... ;)

If you would offer a monster with such an effect, it will stay in the Grave, under ALL circumstances!
Even if your opponent chains to the effect of the monster with something like Divine Wrath, it wouldn't come back to the field!!!

You are the controller of the monster and therefore, you KNOW that it has an effect that includes offering it as an activation cost to the Grave!

So where's the problem to offer a face-down monster due to its own effect???
You KNEW that it had such an effect when you offered it!
And your opponent can easily checkt this when it arrives in the Grave, so he can just tell you 'oh, it was legal that you offered your monster'...

That it's not all too logical, because face-down monsters SHOULD have NO effect at all...
well... I agree...

but I could live with that Rulings Change... ^^
At least it makes some kind of sense... :)

soul :cool:
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
When it comes down to a tribute for the effect of Kaibaman, it doesn't matter if the card is face-up or face-down.

In order to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon, you must tribute "this card"

Hmmm... I can't explain by Game Mechanics, but by the card you control. You are to Flip Summon Magician of Faith because you are able to do so, you know the effect so you Flip it face-up to get the effect. You, the player, the controller of Kaibaman have control of this monster and the ability to Tribute it for it's own effect to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon from your hand.

As I stated before, when it comes down to a tribute for the effect of Kaibaman, it doesn't matter if the card is face-up or face-down. You are the controller of Kaibaman so you know what effects are face-down that you control, so tributing it shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...

My Reply has been unheard! T_T* tears!!
 
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Strike - I heard you, and read that several times, just that I think that Kaibaman is an ignition effect, so it would need to be face-up to activate. This situation is different from Flame Ruler, etc. because those cards, when Trbiuted, for an appropriate Attribute monster, their Continuous effect turns that 1 Tribute into 2 Tributes.

-chaosruler
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
My Reply has been unheard! T_T* tears!!
Click to expand...
Your reply is based on the assumption that Kaibaman is an Ignition effect, which seems to be based on the assumption that you can use Divine Wrath against Kaibaman, which you have as of yet failed to show.

By the text, it seems an ignition effect. It has the standard "(do this) to (do this)", yet the ruling of The Creator Incarnate does not allow for it, as a card does not have an effect while face-down, and past precedences have shown that Ignition effects can't activate while face-down, even when they send themselves to the graveyard as a cost.

My current theory is that Kaibaman is what the JERP calls a "Rule-changing" card, like Kaiser Sea Horse and Cyber Harpie. I think that Kaibaman gives the Blue-Eyes White Dragons the "effect" of a Special Summon, such as with The Fiend Megacyber or Gilasaurus.
 
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You could tribute Kaibaman while it's face-down, so you state you tribute Kaibaman for the "effect" to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon, then moment you tribute Kaibaman, it's placed face-up in the graveyard, where the opponent could verify know what is being played here.

Being the player who controls Kaibaman, you tribute Kaibaman while it's face-down as a cost, then it's placed face-up in he graveyard, and you can chain to this effect. It seems to me that is it is indeed an Ignition Effect.
 
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Hmmm... you can chain to the effect of Kaibaman, since you first tribute it for it's own effect first, making it a chainable event. Divine Wrath can be played against Kaibaman.
 
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You could tribute Kaibaman while it's face-down, so you state you tribute Kaibaman for the "effect" to Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon, then moment you tribute Kaibaman, it's placed face-up in the graveyard, where the opponent could verify know what is being played here.
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It's not about verification. Cards simply don't have ignition effects while face-down.

Kaibaman is closely related to Kaiser Sea Horse, which can also be used while face-down, and which would also make no sense as an Ignition effect.

Hmmm... you can chain to the effect of Kaibaman, since you first tribute it for it's own effect first, making it a chainable event. Divine Wrath can be played against Kaibaman.
Click to expand...

Once AGAIN, you are assuming that you can chain to the effect of Kaibaman at all. You are ASSUMING that it is an ignition effect to prove that it can be Divine Wrath'd, to prove that it is an ignition effect. See the problem?
 
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soulwarrior said:
You are the controller of the monster and therefore, you KNOW that it has an effect that includes offering it as an activation cost to the Grave!

So where's the problem to offer a face-down monster due to its own effect???
You KNEW that it had such an effect when you offered it!
And your opponent can easily checkt this when it arrives in the Grave, so he can just tell you 'oh, it was legal that you offered your monster'...
Click to expand...

This is what my answers were based on.

You do have a point though, it isn't about verification. It's about the controller who knows there own effects.

Seeing as the way The Creator FAQs were, I was comparing that to of Kaibaman's effect.

And I believe you can Divine Wrath the effect of Kaibaman, because you are in attempt tp Special Summon Blue-Eyes White Dragon.

I mean like you can't just Special Summon some monster, only effects can do that.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Hmmmm . . . going out an limb seems to be my specialty nowadays, so I'm gonna take a stab at this one, too.

I think monster cards that require themselves to be "tributed" for thier effect (and do not specificaly require themselves to be face-up) can be tributed face-down without defying any game mechanics. They allow you to tell your opponent at the moment of payment what card they are and what card effect is going off. They do this because thier effects do not require them to be face-up at the moment of tribute and cards like Exiled Force, Winged Minion and The Forgiving Maiden specificaly do.

If they don't specificaly designate themselves (and themselves alone) as the selection for the tribute and if they are not specificaly Special Summoning something then you cannot tribute them for thier effect.

Hmmm . . .I feel the limb breaking . . .
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The original Japanese texts.

Exiled Force:
Sacrifice this card. One monster on the field is destroyed.

Winged Minion:
Sacrifice this card.
Choose one face-up Demon-type monster on the field. While that monster is face-up on the field, its attack and defense are boosted by 700 points.

The Forgiving Maiden:
Sacrifice this face-up card.
Return a blah blah blah, you know the effect.
 
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After thinking about what I wrote, I reconsidered my response to the face down Kaibaman, etc. I would assume you would flip summon them first to indicate to your opponent what the cards effect is.
 
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