Fiend Skull Dragon

G

Gimpy

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I have a few questions about this particular card. For starters, I want to take issue with the FAQ.

FIEND SKULL DRAGON

If your opponent Flip Summons a monster with a Flip Effect, and chains a card like "Ring of Destruction" to destroy "Fiend Skull Dragon", the Flip Effect will not be negated since "Fiend Skull Dragon" is no longer on the field when the Flip Effect resolves, and it will only negate Flip Effect "as long as this card remains face-up on the field".
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Anybody else sitting here wondering how your opponent managed to nail your "Fiend Skull Dragon" with "Ring of Destruction" ( a TARGETING TRAP )?

What really has me vexed is the issue of using "Summoner of Illusions" to special summon "Fiend Skull Dragon". According to the research journal "Fiend Skull Dragon" will negate the flip effect of "Summoner of Illusions" once it hits the field, thus allowing it to duck the destruction at the end of the turn.

OK, so how is the special summoning from "Summoner of Illusions" different from that of "Magical Scientist"? Even if "Magical Scientist" gets negated by "Skill Drain" or is removed / turned face-down on the field, the conditions of the special summoning are not taken away. The effect has resolved, and a condition was placed on the summoning.

So, can this also be extrapolated to indicate that if "Summoner of Illusions" is turned face-down after having been used to special summon "Fiend Skull Dragon" that once again the Dragon gets to remain on the field rather than be destroyed?

What about Skill Drain? How is this so different from the negating effect of "Fiend Skull Dragon"?

Again, from the FAQ:

Skill Drain" will not affect lingering effects or conditions that are left over from a previous effect. For example, if you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Summoner of Illusions", and then "Skill Drain" is activated afterwards, the Fusion Monster is still destroyed in the End Phase. If you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Magical Scientist", and then "Skill Drain" is activated, the Fusion Monster cannot attack your opponent's Life Points directly, and is returned to the Fusion Deck at the end of the turn.
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So where did I miss something? If it matters, I'm using the Advanced Rulings Research Journal, Volume 1 for the "Summoner of Illusions" vs "Fiend Skull Dragon" ruling. Everything else came from the UDE FAQ.
 
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Ok, the first part that you mentioned where they use "Ring of Destruction" for their example is a known gaff on UDE's part. Since this is about the 3rd or 4rd time someone's mentioned it, I will add it to the FAQ sticky.

As for the second part... Let me look up where that ruling came from (the mailing list most likely) and I'll get back to you on that... and yes, it's a bit inconsistant.

EDIT: I have no idea where that ruling came from. I searched back through the current and old mailing list and couldn't find word one about that.

Also the first part has been added to the FAQ.
 
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I'm not sure where that ruling came from either, but it's right there in the "Advanced Rulings Research Journal, Vol. 1, Issue 2. I've been looking everywhere too, but I can't find any other reference to this.

I can't figure out how to post a rulings question on the judges message board, so if anybody who does know could either tell me or post a question about this, I would apreciate it. I'm about ready to just retake the Judges test using my wife's name so that Upper Deck will give me access to the boards again.
 
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I belive that's how you have to post. once they list you as a member, you can submit e-mails to the message board for processing. Other than that, you're welcome to view it online as much as you'd like.
 
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I believe it is saved from the destruction effect of Summoner of Illusions because as soon as it hits the field it negates that effect. The rulings on Magical Scientist state that the return to the fusion deck condition has already been applied to the summoned monster and that is why Skill Drain won't take that away when activated after the summon.

So it is dependent on the specific point where the effect is negated. If you used Summoner of Illusions to bring Master of Oz to the field and then summoned Fiend Skull Dragon afterwards Master of Oz would still be destroyed at the end of the turn (the effect was applied to Master of Oz when he was summoned and is now a condition placed upon that monster unless it is turned face down or removed from the field). If we had a fusion monster with the Skill Drain effect built in I would assume he would remain on the field after being summoned by either Summoner or Magical Scientist as he would negate the condition being placed upon him as soon as he arrived.
 
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I did find the ruling (from Bishop on the old Yahoo Judge's site)

(Original question)

The underlying theory questions are these:
1). Does Summoner of Illusions's effect only last if he is on the
field? I am assuming that he must be on the field to have it negated.
2). Does Fiend Skull Dragon IMMEDIATELY negate the effect, or only
negate it when the effect would take place? In other words, once
Fiend Skull Dragon is Special Summoned is SoI's effect destroyed
forever immediately, or does it only negate it if SoI is still alive
in the End Phase?

(Bishop's reply)

From: "bishop" <bishop@k...> Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:02 am Subject: RE: [UDE YGO Judge's List] Fiend Skull Dragon
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When you Special Summon "Fiend Skull Dragon" with the effect of "Summoner ofIllusions", "Fiend Skull Dragon" [immediately] negates the Flip Effect of"Summoner of Illusions" and "Fiend Skull Dragon" remains on the field and isnot destroyed at the end of the turn._______________bishopOfficial UDE Netrep

Bishop? Care to hop in on this one?

It would seem to me that if Fiend Skull Dragon is summoned via Summoner of Illusions....once it hits the field Summoner of Illusion's flip effect is resolved. How can you negate something that's already been resolved?

I suppose it could be argued that the flip effect doesn't resolve UNTIL Fiend Skull Dragon is summoned....thereby negating the effect....but if that were the case would Fiend Skull Dragon be able to be brought out in the first place?

<shaking head cartoon style> IEIEIEIEIEIEIEIEI

<Hulk voice> Brain hurt....Hulk not like.
 
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I've posted a question and request for explination of reasoning for the post above on the new UDE Judge's list. We'll just have to wait and see. The ruling seems to go against sim. card effects.
 
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This really isn't that hard to understand. When you summon Jinzo with Call of the Haunted Jinzo negates Call once he arrives and thus if Call is then destroyed Jinzo won't be affected. Summoner resolves summoning Fiend Skull Dragon to the field, once Fiend Skull Dragon arrives on the field Summoner's effect tries to place a condition on him that he will be destroyed at the end of the turn and Fiend Skull negates that condition from being applied to him. I don't even think it would matter if Summoner were still face-up on the field. Fiend Skull's effect states that while he is face-up on the field he negates all Flip Effect Monster's effects. So if Fiend Skull is summoned after Spear Cretin is flipped but before it is sent to the grave the effect of Spear Cretin will still be negated when it is sent to the graveyard.
 
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I don't think it's anything like Jinzo / Call of the Haunted.

I'm comparing this to the Magical Scientist / Skill Drain scenairo. A pre-existing condtion seems to have been placed on Fiend Skull Dragon.

If indeed Fiend Skull negates Summoner of Illusion's flip effect then how could Fiend Skull be summoned in the first place?

Then...

If Summoner of Illusions flip effect has resolved upon Fiend Skull's summon and the summon itself is not negated it would seem that there is a pre-existing condition such as with Magical Scientist

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this <shrug & a laugh> I have been know to over think a situation from time to time.
 
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Jinzo negates traps while it is face up on the field. Fiend Skull negates flip effects while it is face up on the field. Jinzo can be summoned by Call of the Haunted because he won't negate Call until after he is on the field, Fiend Skull can be summoned by Summoner because he won't negate Summoner until after he is on the field. Seems to have some similarities.

The "condition" being placed is where the question comes in. Obviously Summoner can summon Fiend Skull because Fiend Skull wouldn't negate the effect while he is sitting in the fusion deck. Just like Jinzo isn't negating Call while he is waiting in the graveyard.

Skill Drain doesn't negate the condition once it has been placed on the monster. Fiend Skull negates the condition when it is attempting to be placed on the monster. That is the difference. Once the condition has been set you have to find another route to save the monster (Book of Moon for instance). Fiend Skull negates the condition from being applied to him because his effect kicks in as soon as he reaches the field.
 
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But the condition would be applied during the resolution of the effect of "Summoner of Illusions". And if it's really a condition or "state", then it shouldn't be negated by "Fiend Skull Dragon". After all, if "Jinzo" is face-down and flipped face up during the activation of "Ceasefire", "Ceasefire" continues to resolve because "Jinzo"'s effect cannot activate in the middle of something else resolving. So "Fiend Skull Dragon"'s effect could not activate while "Summoner of Illusions" is still resolving, unless the effect is considered "Resolved" once the monster hits the field and the "condition" is only applied after that (akin to "Last Turn" being "resolved" once all cards save the 1 monster is sent to the Graveyard. While there's more to the effect, other things can happen first before that effect continues).
 
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This is exactly why I brought it up. With Jinzo vs. Call of the Haunted you have a totally different senario. Call has two distinct effects, both with different triggers.

Part 1) Targets a monster in the Graveyard, special summons that monster in face-up attack pos.

Part 2) If Call is destroyed or removed from field, this triggers the effect of Call to destroy the summoned monster.

When Call summons Jinzo, it is only by the first part of the effect, and then, after that portion has resolved, the negation effect of Jinzo comes into play. In the case of Call of the Haunted, you have seperate trigger events where Jinzo's effect can jump in. But with Summoner of Illusions the effect is written very similar to that of other effects which perform special summons while placing a condition upon that summoning. There is no seperate trigger in the effect text of Summoner of Illusions, so I see no window for the Fiend Skull Dragon to jump in and interupt the full resolution of Summoner's effect.

It's a standing game mechanic that one effect can not interupt the complete resolution of another effect durring it's resolution. Exodia's game win condition can not jump in until Graceful Charity has finished it's full effect, and I think there is something very inconsitant with this ruling on Fiend Skull Dragon.

I will look forward to seing "IF" Upper Deck can answer this one, or if it's going to be a month or two until Konami can explain it.
 
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I totally agree with Gimpy on this one. I mean how can Fiend Skull Dragon negate an effect that has already resolved? Leave it to UDE to make life interesting!
 
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Misconception. It's actually negating while the card is resolving.

I believe the ruling will be changed, following the Jinzo/Rope of Life ruling.

Anyway, the old judge list rulings are not trustworthy before about Augest 2004.
 
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<Quote>
Misconception. It's actually negating while the card is resolving.
<End Quote>

You're missing the other part of the arguement then.
If it's still resolving and Fiend Skull Dragon negates the flip effect....then how can Fiend Skull Dragon be summoned in the first place?

This would be negating an effect in the middle of resolution. Can you give me any other examples where this happens in the game of Yugioh?
 
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Actually, since they changed the "Jinzo" rulings (from which I gather they used to allow that to activate in the middle of a trap resolving, thereby negating it if I'm presuming correctly), the entire scenario as listed above should end up being changed... theoretically.

- A
 
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Yeah, what John's saying is right. How can an effect that is being resolved, right then and there, all of a sudden be up and negated? It just doesn't seem possible, probable, or any other word that starts with "p" and ends with "e".
 
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<Quote>
Actually, since they changed the "Jinzo" rulings (from which I gather they used to allow that to activate in the middle of a trap resolving, thereby negating it if I'm presuming correctly), the entire scenario as listed above should end up being changed... theoretically.
<End Quote>

Changed the Jinzo ruling? I must have missed something. Call of the Haunted can be chained to a trap card's ACTIVATION to bring back Jinzo and keep first trap card ACTIVATED from resolving....but bringing back Jinzo doesn't break into a trap card resolving, it just keeps it from beginning to resolve.

In the scenario with Summoner of Illusions and Fiend Skull Dragon it's different.
 
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You are right, John, but I think that Raijinili and densetsu_x were talking about an old ruling:

"You can use "Rope of Life" to Special Summon "Jinzo" but "Jinzo"'s ATK will NOT increase by 800 points." (don't anybody follow this ruling. It's outdated)

This is the scenario that is alike to the one of Summoner of Illusions and Fiend Skull Dragon. The ruling above was finally changed. They believe the same should happen in this case.
 
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