Giant Kozaky and timing...

[Dillie-O]

I asked this to the judges thread a while back, but still haven't gotten an answer. I figured I'd go to the next best place for some insights. We had a discussion on it at realms and I think we're in a middle ground on it...anyway...

Shame on me for forgetting such things, but here's my scenario:

I have a face up Kozaky on my side of the field.
Opponent has a face up Giant Kozaky on their side of the field and a set Bottomless Trap Hole.

I tribute my Kozaky for Dark Ruler Ha Des. Does my opponent lose the opportunity to respond with Bottomless Trap Hole?

For reference...
Giant Kozaky
Effect Monster
DARK / Fiend / 4 Stars
ATK: 2500 DEF: 2400
If there is no face-up "Kozaky" on the field, destroy this card. If this face-up card on the field is destroyed, inflict damage to the current controller's Life Points equal to the original ATK of this card.

I know that Dark Ruler will hit the field and immediately following GKZ will destroy himself. It is a continuous effect and can't be chained to. I'm trying to figure out the order of events for the trigger of GKZ's "tactical nuke" effect and the opponent having the opportunity to respond to the summon, if at all. They're events responding to two different situations, and I'm not 100% sure they form on the chain together.

Back before Last Will was retrofitted, the ruling stood that Last Will's state was a continuous state, that triggered at its first opportunity and couldn't be chained to. So in a situation like above (let's use different monsters). The tribute for Dark Ruler would occur, and Last Will would immediately resolve, allowing me to special summon a monster. At that point, the last thing to happen was a monster summoned of 1500 ATK or less, so the opponent lost the opportunity to BTH the Dark Ruler.

Thoughts?

 

[ygo doc]

You are correct in that Giant Kozaky destroying itself is a continuous effect and does NOT go on chain. However, the effect damage to the current controller does go on chain.

When the turn player tributes Kozaky to summon Dark Ruler Ha Des, the opponent may chain Bottomless Trap Hole to Giant Kozaky's trigger effect. The NTP does not miss the timing as the trigger effect has not yet resolved.

Chain: Giant Kozaky effect damage => Bottomless Trap Hole

Resolve:
2. Bottomless Trap Hole
1. GK effect damage (2500 if unmodified)

doc

 

[Dillie-O]

Hmm, but what about the "whole last even to happen type thing" The last event to happen was a monster being destroyed, so doesn't BTH lose its opportunity?

 

[Digital Jedi]

Since when does a Trigger Effect or Continuous Effect interrupt the summon response timing? If a Trigger Effect activates as a result of a summon, it becomes a link in the chain created in response to the summon, or it creates the chain to begin with. If a Continuous Effect applies as a result of a summon, it does so in between any chain links that are in play. Bottomless Trap Hole isn't one of those cards that can miss its timing in that way. The event of a summon and the response timing it creates can't be interrupted, only passed upon. If it's not passed upon by both players, there's no reason you wouldn't be able to respond to it with the appropriate cards.

 

[Dillie-O]

I'll refer back to my Last Will ruling, to which I spent many a time and many a judge's ear working the mechanics out until they decided to essentially do Last Will v2.

Under the old system, Last Will had a triggered state which resolved itself in a continuous manner in that it couldn't be chained to. So you could play Last Will, tribute for a Monster. The "state" would immediately activate, allowing you to special summon a monster with an attack of 1500 or less. At that point the last thing to occur was the special summoning of a monster, and provided its attack wasn't 1500, the opponent had lost the opportunity to respond to a summon.

So I look at Giant Kozaky and I'm seeing a similar situation. A monster is tribute summoned and Giant Kozaky's triggered effect is activated. It resolves in a continuous manner, so the opponent wouldn't be able to chain BTH to this. Once this resolves, we now have a state where the last thing to happen was a monster was destroyed, not a monster was summoned.

I agree that continuous/triggered monster effects are different than continuous/triggered spell & trap cards, but things seem pretty similar.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Still, strikes me as being the same mechanics and logic. I don't remember the old ruling, but if that's the case, that strikes me as being contradictory to the current rules on summon response timing.

Imagine a similar scenario where a summon response chain is created, and a monster is destroyed during the creation of that chain. Under our current instructions, the timing for summon responders is still appropriate. In your case, the response point is initiated, a Continuous Effect applies itself, and a chain link is created. The only difference, is the location of the Continuous Effect, but the response point is still there.

 

[densetsu_x]

I can make it even simpler.

The moment Kozaky is Tributed, Giant Kozaky will be destroyed. At this point however, noone said the summon (in this case for Dark Ruler Ha Des) was successful. I could respond with Solemn Judgment or Forced Back. Assuming I don't then the last thing to happen in this case is the monster has been successfully summoned.

But wait! An effect technically did activate in between this summon happening. That would be the damage inflicting part of Giant Kozaky. However, the timing is still very correct to activate Bottomless Trap Hole.

It's not that dissimilar to tributing Sangan for something. Sangan's effect is just waiting to activate but the summon could still be negated first. If it is, Sangan's effect starts a new chain. Otherwise, when Sangan's effect is put on the chain, you still have the opportunity to respond to the summon.

 

[ygo doc]

I'll refer back to my Last Will ruling, to which I spent many a time and many a judge's ear working the mechanics out until they decided to essentially do Last Will v2.

Comparing this scenario with an outdated ruling on Last Will is pointless. Current rulings with Last Will do not apply to this specific scenario, since timing is not an issue with Last Will with the exception of not being allowed to summon the monster during Damage Calculation.

doc

 

[Dillie-O]

Negating the summon does throw and interesting angle into things. But I don't think GKZ is destroyed the second Kozaky leaves the field, you must complete the act of summoning the Dark Ruler himself before and then destroy GKZ.

Come to think of it, I think Level Limit Area B might be a nice example too. It changes the position of applicable monsters upon summoning, and doesn't use the chain. There are no rulings to state that you've lost the opportunity to respond to the summon, so you can still repond either directly or as part of the chain.

Thanks guys, it's finally starting to make sense.