Hand destruction

[Terry the Elder]

Text
Each player sends 2 cards from their hand to the Graveyard and draws 2 cards.

Is this two effects or one cost and one effect.

I am not sure because of the word "and". This sort of implies two effects.

Thanks in advance

 

[Digital Jedi]

Generally speaking, one inclusive sentence means one inclusive effect as well. But, again, generally.

 

[HorusMaster]

This would also imply that if BOTH players don't have at least two cards in their hand, then the card cannot be activated. This would also lead one to think that it may be a cost effect in that if you can't pay the cost, you cannot get the effect.

 

[Terry the Elder]

Is it possible the card would need both players to have at least two cards to activate, in which case we are full circle on effect or cost. It looks like it has activation conditions as opposed to a cost, then two effects. That is what I think, but also why I asked the question.

I am confused.

 

[HorusMaster]

It isn't a cost effect for activation but rather a condition placed upon the controller before being able to activate the card. The condition is that BOTH players must have at least two cards in their hand prior to activating the card. I was stating in my prior posting that some might think it's a cost effect. Like other spell cards that exist, the controller cannot activate Hand of Destruction is the conditions are not met by both players.

 

[Terry the Elder]

thank you. I think i have it.

1) Check conditions are correct.
2) Play card.

No cost to pay.

 

[Maruno]

A cost is paying Life Points, or discarding a card, or Tributing a monster. Something like that, something you do. Things like "Activate only if you control "Des Wombat"" are not costs, because you're not doing anything when you activate it. If you didn't have a "Des Wombat" you couldn't activate the card in the first place. That is a so-called activation condition. Completely different thing.

That probably didn't help much, I'm sure. I think we're agreed that Hand Destruction is entirely an effect.

Is it all-or-nothing, or resolve-as-much-as-possible? Meaning, if an effect is chained to Hand Destruction to make one player not have 2 or more cards in their hand, would the other player still discard and draw? I think this debate stems from "each player" versus "either player" versus "both players", and if there's even a difference between the phrases in the first place.

I can see it going either way, so I won't guess.

 

[Oceanus]

I find it more easily as one effect, one in which you cannot activate if your opponent does not have two cards in their hand (or yourself, or either player does not have to cards in the deck) because then you would not be able to fully resolve an effect, therefore you could not activate it.

 

[HorusMaster]

It's not a matter of whether the effect resolves or not, as long as the conditions are met at the time of activation. If the opponent chains Magic Drain, the effect wouldn't resolve because it was negated. If a player activates Trap Dustshoot at the time the opponent has 4 cards in their hand and another trap is chained that discards one card from the opponent's hand (leaving them with three cards), Trap Dustshoot still resolves because the appropriate conditions existed at the time of activation. The same would be true for Hand Destruction, as long as the conditions for activation existed at activation, the effect would resolve as much as it could.

 

[Maruno]

As much as possible, then?

So when Hand Destruction comes to resolve, if player A only has 1 card in their hand, then only player B will send 2, draw 2. Player A does nothing.

Right?

 

[HorusMaster]

As much as possible, then?

So when Hand Destruction comes to resolve, if player A only has 1 card in their hand, then only player B will send 2, draw 2. Player A does nothing.

Right?

That would be my interpretation of it, yes. Just because Player A only has 1 card in their hand at the time Hand Destruction resolves should not stop Player B from sending 2 and drawing 2 cards. As it's been discussed many times before with other card effects- as long as the conditions exist at the time the card activates, the effect resolves as much as possible. To my knowledge, there has never been a card effect that demands that a condition exist at the time the card effect resolves, only a condition on activation requirements. But I could be wrong about that aspect.

By the way, how does this card effect look for those of us who still run Dark World decks? Dark World effect plus a Pot of Greed effect? SWEET!!!

 

[Oceanus]

I see it as an effect. You cannot activate an effect that at the time of activation could not resolve properly. Such is evident by a "Volcanic Scattershot" that is discarded for "Blaze Accelerator," and then your opponent does not have any monsters left, thus not allowing you to activate Scattershot's next effect.

This would be a similar effect situation. You can't activate the effect of "Hand Destruction" because you would be attempting to activate an effect that could not resolve properly because you or your opponent would not have two cards in the hand, or either or both may not have enough cards in the deck.

 

[Maruno]

To my knowledge, there has never been a card effect that demands that a condition exist at the time the card effect resolves, only a condition on activation requirements. But I could be wrong about that aspect.

Well, there's cards like Nobleman of Extermination that require the target to still be face-down upon resolution.

By the way, how does this card effect look for those of us who still run Dark World decks? Dark World effect plus a Pot of Greed effect? SWEET!!!

Sorry, but Hand Destruction is a send, NOT a discard. Dark World does not mix favourably.

 

[HorusMaster]

I see it as an effect. You cannot activate an effect that at the time of activation could not resolve properly. Such is evident by a "Volcanic Scattershot" that is discarded for "Blaze Accelerator," and then your opponent does not have any monsters left, thus not allowing you to activate Scattershot's next effect.

This would be a similar effect situation. You can't activate the effect of "Hand Destruction" because you would be attempting to activate an effect that could not resolve properly because you or your opponent would not have two cards in the hand, or either or both may not have enough cards in the deck.

I'm sorry but you are wrong about this whole aspect. Volcanic Scattershot has a condition placed upon it for it's effect. True that you cannot activate a card KNOWING that it cannot resolve. You can't even activate the card knowing this. Such would be the case if the player activates Hand Destruction knowing that he and his opponent have less than two cards in their hand. This would be an illegal activation. However, a player that activates a card where the conditions for activation are correct, cannot know how a card effect would resolve. The opponent has a multitude of options for chaining to the card's effect that would keep the card from resolving, such as Magic Drain.

Bottomline, the conditions for proper activation of a card need to be present before it can be activated and as long as those conditions are met, then the card's effect will resolve as much as possible.

Sorry, but Hand Destruction is a send, NOT a discard. Dark World does not mix favourably.

True...forgot that part...<sniff>

 

[Oceanus]

But Scattershot is listed as having Two Trigger effects, and no conditions. I'm trying to say that every effect in this game doesn't come after a condition, conditions are such that grants you a Normal Summon by "Double Summon," or "Tyrant Dragon's" Special Summon from the Graveyard. Then their are Activation Requirements (Conditions) in which you cannot activate a "Des Croaking" without three face-up "Des Frogs."

Effects cannot be activated if there is something preventing them from being done so. Another example is "Pot of Avarice" when you clearly don't have five monsters in the Graveyard. "Hand Destruction" could be noticeably stopped considering the situations I mentioned.

Your turn.

 

[Maruno]

I'm sorry but you are wrong about this whole aspect. Volcanic Scattershot has a condition placed upon it for it's effect. True that you cannot activate a card KNOWING that it cannot resolve. You can't even activate the card knowing this.

Well, not really. This falls under one of the game mechanics, which says you cannot knowingly activate a card whose effect cannot fully. After it's been activated, of course, things are different, and it depends on the card whether you try to resolve as much as possible, or whether the effect simply disappears.

So, those kind of cards do not have activation conditions; they are simply subject to the game mechanics (as is every card ever). Activation conditions, as Oceanus says directly above me, are texts like "Activate only when you control "Fusionist"". Activation conditions are specifically written on cards, and are used to give a card more exclusive activation opportunities than the game mechanics alone do. The same goes for Summoning conditions, of course.