Horn of Heaven Vs Monster Reborn, etc.

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StRiKe_NiNjA

Dimension Shift Ninja
Wow, this ruling, to be honest, is the newest to me, no matter how old it is... tsss, new to me.

You can't "respond" with "Horn of Heaven" to the "Special Summon" of a monster by "Monster Reborn"

Or why you can't "respond" with Horn of Heaven" to the "Special Summon" of a "ritual monster" brought out by a "Ritual Spell Card"

I find that hard to understand.

The only logical reason I can think off is that Horn of Heaven would interupt a chain.

Can someone explain why we are limited to use Horn of Heaven against only effects such as Vampire Lord, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, Dark Necrofear, etc.
 
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If I summon Sangan and my opponent activates Horn of Heaven I do not get the search because Sangan was not "on the field". I'm not trying to argue with you over terminology but in most peoples minds once a monster with a continuous effect is "on the field" the effect activates (ie. Jinzo). That is why it is easier to explain that the negator traps stop the Monster from arriving on the field. In essence it is treated as if it never made it to the field.
 
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skey23 said:
From the rulings you quoted, the logic above seems to be the correct logic. Since "Royal Oppression" is being activated AFTER the monster was 'placed' on the field.
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Well, anthonyj already explained that you can chain Royal Oppression to an effect, so that's done.

He's the main monkey wrench for me.

The rulings for Divine Wrath do not match up with the Horn of Heaven rulings where Vampire Lord is concerned.

Having the ability chain Divine Wrath means it is an activated effect (Trigger), but if that's true, you should not be able to use Horn of Heaven on it. Vampire Lord would be summoned during the resolution of that effect and you would have missed the timing for Horn of Heaven, just as you would for Monster Reborn and the like. To suggest that it works soley based on the effect being internal, is just erroneous and doesn't make sense.

It's this specific conflict between Vampire Lord (and others like it) and those two Counter Traps that is really making my head spin. This is one of the few cases i've run into where there really is no clear mechanics that can explain it.
 
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The timing for Horn of Heaven is based on stopping a monster that can "Special Summon" itself (Gilasaurus, Gigantes, the Envoys, Watapon, Vampire Lord, etc.) or simply stopping a Normal or Flip Summon. That is the essence of the card. The reason it doesn't work on Ritual or Monster Reborn type Special Summons is that the summon is a product of the resolution of another effect. That is not the case with Vampire Lord, it Special Summons itself and thus is eligible to be stopped by Horn of Heaven. Horn of Heaven doesn't care if the monster is being summoned from the hand or graveyard it only cares that the monster is coming to the field without the assistance of another card.
 
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anthonyj said:
If I summon Sangan and my opponent activates Horn of Heaven I do not get the search because Sangan was not "on the field". I'm not trying to argue with you over terminology but in most peoples minds once a monster with a continuous effect is "on the field" the effect activates (ie. Jinzo). That is why it is easier to explain that the negator traps stop the Monster from arriving on the field. In essence it is treated as if it never made it to the field.
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When Sangan is placed onto the field, that is the summon, You negate it with Horn of Heaven cuz the actual summon is placed onto the field where both players can see clearly. You then respond with Horn of Heaven negating the summon of that monster it never makes it to the field being negated.

To me I see it as any other Counter card. You pay 800 life points to activate Premture Burial, placing it on the field all at once. Magic Jammer is chained to negate it.
 
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Like if a Flip Summon was to occur. I dont see Response Points. You declare the Flip Summon, flipping the monster face-up all at once, Horn of Heaven is then played here.

Same as a Normal Summon. You declare the Normal Summon, summon that monster placing it onto the field all at once, Horn of Heaven can then negate the summon.
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, I just noticed something that REALLY bugs me! From the FAQ on "Royal Oppression":

"If "Royal Oppression" is face-up on the field, and "Monster Reborn" is activated to Special Summon "Jinzo", you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" in a chain to negate the Special Summon because "Jinzo" is not on the field until the chain resolves."

Woah!..does that say what I think it says? Then why CAN'T you use "Horn of Heaven" the same way???

"Royal Oppression" is a Spell Speed 2 effect, "Horn of Heaven" is Spell Speed 3! So what's the deal?

They both do the same thing!

That's just wrong!
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When a monster is brought by a Special Summon to it's own effect, like Gilasaurus, Royal Oppresion is activated to negate the Special Summon, sending Gilasaurus to the graveyard.

As I stated before, if Horn of Heaven does negate the summon before it even "is placed on the field" what would happen to the monster card? Does it remain in your hand?

The summon itself is placed onto the field, Horn of Heaven will negate that summon and send the monster card that was just recently summoned, to the graveyard.
 
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This is how I picture a monster being special summoned, flip summoned, normal summoned, or tribute summoned: When a monster is summoned, it will appear on the field, but it will not touch the field yet. He will be hoovering on top of the field, about an inch or so between his feet and the ground. He will wait for anyone to negate his summoning. "Horn of Heaven" (if applicable), "Solemn Judgment", and "Royal Oppression" can be played to negate his summon. If none of those cards are played, then the monster will touch down on the ground. When this happends, the summons is considered successfull already. Continuous Effect will now be active. Then the opponent may play "Trap Hole" or "Bottomless Trap Hole" if the activation is valid.
 
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Honestly, I have never understood why Horn of Heaven was ruled not to work against a monster that was special summoned by a card effect. I always believed (and still do), that after card used to special summon the monster resloved, the last thing that happenes in that the monster is special summoned to the field. At this point, you should be able to respond with a trap such as Horn of Heaven.

It works this way in Magic the Gathering, only becasue in that game there is an actually difference between a spell (which all cards including creatures are after they are played but before they reslove), and a creature that is put directly into play with another card's effect (in which case the creature would not be considered a spell). I don't see where this difference exists in Yugioh. A Special summon is a Special summon.

Also, we should all remember that the only way to Speical summon something back when Horn of Heaven was first created (unless I am forgetting something), was by a card effect (mainly Flute of Summoning Dragon, or Monster Reborn). Since Horn of Heaven says that it can negate Special Summons, it would appear to me that orginally the card could to negate a monster that was brought back by another card's effect. Why then would it have changed after monsters that could Speical Summon themselves to the were created?
 
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chaosruler said:
StRiKe_NiNjA - think of it this way, you do not actually chain to the FLIP summon, etc. but respond to it or it's effect activation (i.e. Stealth Bird, Guardian Sphinx, etc.), so Horn of Heaven negates the summon, it was considered successful, but (this is gonna sound silly), you could say that Horn of Heaven rewinds time and makes it so that the summon did not occur....

-chaosruler
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I think it's better to say the the summon is not successful yet, because the opponent can respond with "Horn of Heaven" (if applicable), "Solemn Judgment", and "Royal Oppression" to negate his summon. If the opponent can't negate the summon, the the summon will be successful.

This is important because if "Jinzo" is summoned, you can respond with "Horn of Heaven" (if applicable), "Solemn Judgment", and "Royal Oppression" even though they are Trap Cards. This is because the summon is not complete yet, so "Jinzo"'s effect is not active yet.

EDIT: rewinding a summon can be very confusing, especialy to new players.
 
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anthonyj said:
The timing for Vampire Lord, it Special Summons itself and thus is eligible to be stopped by Horn of Heaven. Horn of Heaven doesn't care if the monster is being summoned from the hand or graveyard it only cares that the monster is coming to the field without the assistance of another card.','ycard','width=600,height=600'); return false;">That is not the case with Vampire Lord, it Special Summons itself and thus is eligible to be stopped by Horn of Heaven. Horn of Heaven doesn't care if the monster is being summoned from the hand or graveyard it only cares that the monster is coming to the field without the assistance of another card.
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Horn of Heaven", doesn't make sense. On top of that, Triggering V-Lord's effect is even more ridiculous.

There is no merit to the ruling, mechanically. And specifically i'm talking about Vampire Lord and others that Special Summon themselves from the Graveyard. You should be able to chain to the effect and negate it with Horn. Summons from Hand are understandable as there effects or not chainable, and part of the summon cost.','ycard','width=600,height=600'); return false;">
To simply say "a monster is special summoned by its own effect intead of an outside one can be negated by Horn of Heaven", doesn't make sense. On top of that, Triggering V-Lord's effect is even more ridiculous.

There is no merit to the ruling, mechanically. And specifically i'm talking about Vampire Lord and others that Special Summon themselves from the Graveyard. You should be able to chain to the effect and negate it with Horn. Summons from Hand are understandable as there effects or not chainable, and part of the summon cost.
 
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It works this way in Magic the Gathering, only becasue in that game there is an actually difference between a spell (which all cards including creatures are after they are played but before they reslove), and a creature that is put directly into play with another card's effect (in which case the creature would not be considered a spell). I don't see where this difference exists in Yugioh. A Special summon is a Special summon.
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The difference exists in Yu-Gi-Oh! because there are Special Summons that use the chain and those that do not. Additionally, we have Spell Speed's in this game that present limitations and core mechanics that differ from Magic's. Counter Traps can and cannot do certain things and have VERY specific timing. Much like interupts.

Also, this is a fairly new ruling in NA, as for years you could infact use Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgment to negate summons from effects such as Monster Reborn.

I'm not 100% sure about Magic, but i know Vs which is built on the same mechanics, and in Vs, when you Recruit from Hand that actual Recruit uses the chain.

In Yu-Gi-Oh! a Special Summon from Hand (ie. Dark Necrofear) do not use the chain. Those are generally the Special Summons that Horn of Heaven is now limited to, specifically Special Summons from Hand through a monsters own effect.

I personally think we should make summons chainable, and be done with it...
 
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I don't see who this makes any sense, since Horn of Heaven says it negates Special Summons, and (please correct me if I'm wrong) it was created before any cards that could Special summon themselves. Thus, the only Special Summons that Horn would even have a chance to negate before monsters that can Special summon themselves were created, were those that were special summoned by other card's effects, such as "Monster Reborn".
If I am right, why did this change, and when did it do so.
 
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Seems like there is a little resistance to the idea that there are two steps to a Summon. I'm going to put it this way, we often play cards a certain way without really thinking about the legality (or should I say technicality) of the move.

How many people, for example, actually place Last Will in one of thier free S/T Zones BEFORE sending it to the Graveyard? I'd say less than 90% of us do. It's not that we don't know Pot of Greed requires a free Spell/Trap zone when activated, but as a matter of expediency and habit we place it directly in the Graveyard with both players (hopefully) fully aware where the card journeyed, from hand to field technically for purposes of determining the chain. Some people like to throw Raigeki right on top of there opponents monsters, just for emphasis, or maybe they'll smack Dark Hole in the middle of the field between his monster zones and mine. We know that's not where they are supposed to go, nor is it the journey they took from the hand to the Graveyard, but force of habit and time economics have resulted in us doing otherwise.

Similary, with Summoning we often forget the nature of a summon requires a two step process. I like chaosruler's "goin back in time" or "reversing time" comparison, but it's technically incorrect. Horn of Heaven comes in between the step of declaring the summon and the actual placement of the monster card on the field. Monster Reborn is not declaring anything, it's bringing a monster out via it's effect. There is no declaration step. The last thing to happen is the resolution and by that time the monster is considered summoned (past tense) and there is nothing to negate.

As far as Monsters that return themselves go I would think that you could only Horn of Heaven them at ther initial Summon and not when they return themselves. At least that's the impression I get from the FAQ:

<LI>If "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Summoned, and the Summon is negated by "Horn of Heaven", it is Special Summoned during your next Standby Phase because it was destroyed by a card effect.

Somehow it looks to me like they were talking about the initial summon, and not the Special Summon due to it's own card effect. But then I've been fooled before. (Still scathed and bewildered about Ultimate Offering. :( )
 
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I understard your fustration. I wish they would respond quicker to a Question (Konami and UDE).

Digital Jedi said:
If "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Summoned, and the Summon is negated by "Horn of Heaven", it is Special Summoned during your next Standby Phase because it was destroyed by a card effect.

Somehow it looks to me like they were talking about the initial summon, and not the Special Summon due to it's own card effect. But then I've been fooled before. (Still scathed and bewildered about Ultimate Offering. :( )
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This rule was made to indicate that even if Phoenix's did not reach the field and was destroyed, his effect of special summoning its self will trigger because she was destroyed by a card effect.

They should have said "is summoned (including special summoned by its effect), and the summon is negated ...." to make it clearer.
 
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