Is Bait Doll useless or 1 step from God like???

L

LordGanja

New Member
I just read an article by Sakura on Deck Rev telling me that I can play Bait Doll on my own Elemental Burst , destroy all cards on my opponents side of the field and not have to tribute the 4 monsters because Bait Doll negates the cost and activates it for you.Then Bait Doll returns to my deck.It also returns if I use it on my opponents trap cards such as Mirror Force,Bottomless Trap Hole,Etc....after destroying them like a reusable MST.


Questions

1.Pardon my ignorance but is this correct or is he full of it?

2.If he is correct (God help my opponents if he is),then does this mean that Bait Doll can negate any activation cost of any trap assuming the timing and requirments for activating the card are correct?

3.What are the ins and outs of Bait Doll returning to the deck?

Thank You very much for your time .
 
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Elemental Burst
Normal Trap

Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. Destroy all cards on your opponent's side of the field.

this card requires those to activate, if you don't pay, you don't get the effect. Also, if it says "to activate this card" then Bait Doll considers it incorrect timing. If it says something like "When you activate this card" or a cost, then it need not be paid.

-chaosruler
 
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[ycard="TLM-ENSE3" said:
Mazera DeVille[/ycard]]Are there any particular cards where the timing is incorrect but Bait Doll allows the effect to go through at all or am I asking a silly question?
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Bait Doll destroys a card with incorrect timing.

You could use Bait Doll to activate your Skill Drain without cost for example,a nd Skill Drain will negate the effects of monsters on the field.

It *should* work with Elemental Burst, but i'm pretty sure that it doesn't. (Similarly how Doriado works with Fuh-Rin-Ka-Zan but not Elemental Burst)
 
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Thats what I thought as well. I think people are clutching at straws with some of these combos. I would have thoughts Elemental Burst would have failed since it's timing was incorrect as there were no monsters for tribute of the required Element. I think Bait Doll is a great card, and it's effect could be considered in duels now as a lot of traps aren't as chainable as they were before.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Bait Doll destroys a card with incorrect timing.

You could use Bait Doll to activate your Skill Drain without cost for example,a nd Skill Drain will negate the effects of monsters on the field.


I do not understand how this would work. Bait Doll forces the activation of the trap card(Skill Drain). Since this is the correct timing, if the cost was paid Skill Drain would be active. Where does it say it negates the cost? I am not saying you are wrong, just tell me where to go to see this or give me something to extrapolate from(another ruling of some sort).
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chaosruler said:
Bait Doll doesn't negate costs. It just can't force the player to pay them.

-chaosruler
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That's the way I see it as well. It forces the activation. Paying the cost is part of activation. I don't see anything in the rulings that would indicate it activates without cost. I'll do some research though, not everything is in the written rulings as we all know!
 
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*sighs*

first off, its umm..."she"

anyways, I posted a reply...read it and weep ;) j/k j/k

so i don't have to link =\

here's my reply on deckrevs:
-------------------------------------------------------------
so this means nothing to you?

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4551

DIRECTLY FROM CURTIS SCHULTZ IN UDE:

----------------------------------------------------------

Does a player have to pay the cost for the activation of a Trap Card that is forced to activate from Bait Doll?


Thanks
Alejandro Quintero Acevedo
Judge in Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Knowledge Level 2
Judge in VS System Rules Knowledge Level 1




Answer:

You do not pay the activation cost of Traps "Bait Doll" forces to activate.

---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrepâ„¢
CurtisSchultz_netrep@Hotmail.com


once again, i have to prove other people wrong...*rolls eyes* I should be a judge....

lol...btw, don't spread this idea all over the place...it helps increase traffic on DeckRevs :)


EDIT: for your second question, there is only one other card this idea works with and that is Miracle Restoring. Elemental Burst and Miracle Restoring are the only two cards -- that's it. For example if Solemn Judgment is hit by Bait Doll, it DOES NOT negate Bait Doll because Bait Doll is resolving not activating, it is destroyed.

for your third question: it promotes bad topdecks, and as long as it is not negated it will return to the deck, regardless of whether or not it destroyed something. other cons are: it does not stop f/d spells like EC, BoM, and Goats, thereby forcing you to lose a card and doing nothing in return.


EDIT #2: And that shows you that if you know ambigious rulings, you can take advantage of that...like Newdoria vs. Skill Drain...but that's for another day lol

EDIT #3: Actually there are other cards that can apply, like Raigeki Break and Super Waboku (name escapes me at the moment)....the thing is, you might as well discard Bait Doll lol

EDIT #4: gosh I need to stop having broken thoughts...lol...anyways, it does not negate costs at all, but instead bypasses them. Also, note the different wording on:

Torrential:
This card can only be activated when....(event happens)

Elemental Burst:
Tribute etc etc to activate this card.

The word "when" implies that it isn't chainable, and the phrase: "(action) to activate this card" implies that it is chainable but requires a cost.
 
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sakura said:
EDIT: for your second question, there is only one other card this idea works with and that is Miracle Restoring. Elemental Burst and Miracle Restoring are the only two cards -- that's it. For example if Solemn Judgment is hit by Bait Doll, it DOES NOT negate Bait Doll because Bait Doll is resolving not activating, it is destroyed.
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I presume though that you are did not mean to suggest that Solemn Judgement can't be chained to Bait Doll if targeted by Bait Doll, which it can. ;)
 
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sakura-

Thanks for researching Bait Doll's activation of traps for me ;) That IS a ambiguous ruling. Odd that it isn't shown in the rulings for the card. It would be difficult to read that part of the ruling into what's stated.

As for you becoming a judge...by all means! We can always use more knowledgable people, however, be careful, don't presume that rules knowledge is all there is to judging.
 
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Well, I did a little more digging around and found our old thread that we were debating this point as well on... It can be found here...

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.9076

I mention it only for further research and to add the point that the whole "Activation costs aren't paid" came from a Netrep 6.0b reference, heck I didn't even know some of those stayed around or anything. 8^D

The only other nugged I'd add, since sakura did a great job up front, to remember is the activation and resolution pieces of things.

Imperial Order, when targeted by Bait Doll has no problems. There is no activation requirement, and there is nothing in the resolution timing that is incorrect. IO simply negates the effects of spell cards (let's not discuss about what happens to Bait Doll at that point 8^D)

Magic Jammer, when targeted by Bait Doll has an activation cost. However, from our earlier discussions, we can ignore. However, when it comes to resolution, Magic Jammer specificaly states that it negates the activation of spell cards. Bait Doll is now in the resolution phase, so this timing is deemed incorrect.

Raigeki Break, when targeted, has an activation cost as well, which can be ignored. Its resolution is to destroy one card on the field. There is nothing wrong with the timing on this one, so it will resolve and the controller of Raigeki Break gets to destroy a card.

Wall of Revealing Light (which our previous thread discussed) was a little bit trickier. Wall has an activation cost, increments of 1000, which was ignored. However, when we resolve the card, there really isn't a timing problem. Its resolution is that monsters with an ATK lower than the cost paid can't attack. In this case, 0 LP were paid, so monsters with an ATK of 0 or lower can't attack (effectively making it useless).

Elemental Burst falls under the category of Raigeki Break. It has an activation cost (1 element each). Its resolution is to destroy all monsters on your opponents side of the field. The cost is effectively ignored and there's nothing in the timing here that is incorrect.

Oops, that got a little lengthy, but keep in mind the two sides of the coin, activation vs. resolution, and I think that will help things a bit more. Maybe we can get UDE to update the rulings page accordingly 8^D
 
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Ok, I'm going to take the opposite side of the argument here for 1 reason: The wording on Elemental Burst.

Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card.

Yeah I know that's a cost, but to me that text would imply would imply that the tributes are required to have the proper timing to activate Elemental Blast. The other trap cards in your example didn't have that text. And you can't say that's the new text for clarification since the line "to activate this card" only appears on 7 Trap cards (the earliest being Rope of Life from Pharaonic Guardian, 2 more from Dark Crisis, 2 from Soul of the Duelist, and 2 from Flaming Eternity). So I look at those and think the cost is required to properly activate those particular traps.
 
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2 questions:
1. If Bait Doll targets Magic Jammer, the owner of Magic Jammer would have to chain to be the correct timing. If owner did not chain, the cost of discarding a card is not paid and it is the wrong timing because Bait Doll is resolving? Is this correct?

2. If Bait Doll targets Ring of Destruction, this is correct timing. Controller of ring has to choose a target even if the only target is his own monster? Is this correct?
 
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1) Correct.

2) Correct again. Ring of Destruction doesn't have any activation requrements or costs. Well, let's scratch that a smidge. Ring of Destruction does have a requirement that a monster on the field be present so that it can target it upon its activation, so if there were no monsters on the field. Its timing would be incorrect.

EDIT: densetsu_x...the jury is still out in my mind on your comment. You know more about the mechanics of things that I do, so I am reluctant to go either way at this point on that one. I'm kinda hoping some others will have insight as well. Initially my thought is that the fancy wording on Elemental Burst still ultimately means its a cost. Though it could be a cost/condition built into one. Whatever that's worth 8^D
 
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