Is Bait Doll useless or 1 step from God like???

LordGanja

New Member
I just read an article by Sakura on Deck Rev telling me that I can play Bait Doll on my own Elemental Burst , destroy all cards on my opponents side of the field and not have to tribute the 4 monsters because Bait Doll negates the cost and activates it for you.Then Bait Doll returns to my deck.It also returns if I use it on my opponents trap cards such as Mirror Force,Bottomless Trap Hole,Etc....after destroying them like a reusable MST.


Questions

1.Pardon my ignorance but is this correct or is he full of it?

2.If he is correct (God help my opponents if he is),then does this mean that Bait Doll can negate any activation cost of any trap assuming the timing and requirments for activating the card are correct?

3.What are the ins and outs of Bait Doll returning to the deck?

Thank You very much for your time .
 
It is merely a question of Condition vs. Cost. Assume that Cost requirements are not part of the Condition. Basically anything with a Condition is destroyed (unless that condition is currently fulfilled, such as Fuh-Rin-Ka-Zan when Doriados is on the field).

Rope of Life has a Condition AND a Cost: Condition is that a monster is destroyed from battle, and its Cost is to discard your hand.

Raigeki Break and Elemental Burst only have a Cost.

Magic Jammer has a Cost and Condition. Condition is that a Magic card was activated and the Cost is discarding a card.

Fuh-Rin-Ka-Zan has a Condition, but not a Cost.


Actually I do have a question -- If a trap card was set during this turn, and I play Bait Doll on said trap card, and it is a Waboku (to avoid arguments lol), is Waboku destroyed or activated? If something "forces" the activation, is the game mechanic of being unable to activate a trap card during the turn it is set ignored?
 
sakura said:
Actually I do have a question -- If a trap card was set during this turn, and I play Bait Doll on said trap card, and it is a Waboku (to avoid arguments lol), is Waboku destroyed or activated? If something "forces" the activation, is the game mechanic of being unable to activate a trap card during the turn it is set ignored?
The timing is incorrect during the turn a trap card was set. So it would get destroyed.
 
sakura said:
It is merely a question of Condition vs. Cost. Assume that Cost requirements are not part of the Condition. Basically anything with a Condition is destroyed (unless that condition is currently fulfilled, such as Fuh-Rin-Ka-Zan when Doriados is on the field).

Rope of Life has a Condition AND a Cost: Condition is that a monster is destroyed from battle, and its Cost is to discard your hand.

Raigeki Break and Elemental Burst only have a Cost.

Magic Jammer has a Cost and Condition. Condition is that a Magic card was activated and the Cost is discarding a card.

Fuh-Rin-Ka-Zan has a Condition, but not a Cost.

But as I said... Elemental Burst has different text than the other cards that simply have a cost (like Raigeki Break). It specifically states what is needed to activate the card unlike most of the rest. Plus I absolutely refuse to believe that a 2 Card combo can be done to duplicate a 2 Restricted/Banned Card combo.
 
Hey Steve,

Can Bait Doll force the activation of Elemental Burst? Or, is Elemental Burst considered to have an activation requirement (making the timing illegal)?

Elemental Burst

Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. Destroy all cards on your opponent's side of the field.

Thanks,

Stephen

Answer:

If the controller of "Elemental Burst" doesn't have the four required monsters to Tribute, then "Elemental Burst"'s activation timing is off, and it will be destroyed.
__________________
Steve Okegawa
Official UDE Netrép Rules Coordinator
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG
Tournament Organizer Level 1
Vs. System Rules Certification Level 1
 
Hmm, good point indeed. Has anybody sent this little gem over to the rulings list yet for some word from UDE? If not, I'll be happy to swing it by them. I'd be interested to hear the result.
 
Bah! Fie upon you Fiendish Envoy and your fast posting! It makes me look like a dweeb...oops, too late for that 8^D

Ahh, so there we have it. Elemental Burst seems to have a requirement/cost for its activation. Its not enough to tribute the 4 monsters (a pure cost scenario), but they have to be there in the first place in order to tribute.

Points to densetsu_x then? 8^D
 
Fiendish Envoy said:
Hey Steve,

Can Bait Doll force the activation of Elemental Burst? Or, is Elemental Burst considered to have an activation requirement (making the timing illegal)?

Elemental Burst

Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. Destroy all cards on your opponent's side of the field.

Thanks,

Stephen

Answer:

If the controller of "Elemental Burst" doesn't have the four required monsters to Tribute, then "Elemental Burst"'s activation timing is off, and it will be destroyed.
__________________
Steve Okegawa
Official UDE Netrép Rules Coordinator
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG
Tournament Organizer Level 1
Vs. System Rules Certification Level 1

So from this it does look like we can take it that unless the activation cost is paid then the timing is incorrect and that the whole "You don't pay activation costs" is only when you do not decide to chain the card so as to get it's activation and the activation is indeed forced. In general to simplify things, even if the card has no cost if we (myself and some others I play with regularly) want it activated we just chain it or negate Bait Doll.
 
Not true. I understand where you're getting that from, but it is false. The text on Elemental Burst is the reason: Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. You never activate the card if you never tribute. All the other cost-type of things that Bait Doll can avoid are costs, but are worded in a different manner, hence Bait Doll can force them.

-chaosruler
 
Yeah, what I think we have here is a small category of cards that seem to have an activation cost and requirement built into them. densetsu_x brought up a list of those type of trap cards eariler. Rope of Life is one of the examples he mentioned:

When 1 of your monsters is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, discard your entire hand to activate this card. Special Summon the monster to the field, increasing the ATK of the monster by 800 points.

This one has a clearer display of the two. You have an activation requirement that a monster has to be sent to the graveyard and a cost that you discard your entire hand. If Bait Doll targets this card, the opponent wouldn't have to discard their hand, but since a monster hadn't been destroyed as a result of battle, the timing would be incorrect and Rope would go by the wayside.

Again, I must say its awesome having the caliber of folks that are here to learn from!
 
chaosruler said:
Not true. I understand where you're getting that from, but it is false. The text on Elemental Burst is the reason: Tribute 1 each of WIND, WATER, FIRE, and EARTH monsters on your side of the field to activate this card. You never activate the card if you never tribute. All the other cost-type of things that Bait Doll can avoid are costs, but are worded in a different manner, hence Bait Doll can force them.

-chaosruler
Yeah, found this on the Judge list:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4633#4633
If Bait Doll targets a face-down Wall of Revealing Light, would that mean that the wall would:
A. Potentially be able to block an infinitely high attacker, since one wouldn't have to pay however much they designated.

B. Since zero lifepoints were payed, Wall of Revealing Light would remain on the field meaninglessly, and all monsters with over zero attack would be able to.

C. Since Wall of Revealing Light Requires at leat 1000 lifepoints to be payed in order to play it, Wall would be destroyed if the cost was not payed.

All scenarios are assuming that the player who controlls Wall of Revealing Light does not chain it in activation to Bait Doll.

I would imagine that C. would be the correct ruling. Is this correct?




Answer:

C is close, but still not quite there.

"Wall of Revealing Light" remains in play meaninglessly because no cost was paid. (nor could be paid in this case)

---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@Hotmail.com
So it's not simply a case of if the activation costs weren't paid then the timing is wrong. :(
Wish it were, would certainly simplify things...
 
Hmmm, interesting debate. Bait Doll always makes such large intelligent discussions. =)

Like Wall of Revealing Light it would also apply to Mirror Wall wouldn't it or would the effect of Mirror Wall still activate when they attack with it? After all Mirror Wall has no real activation timing issue so I guess that it would activate and stay on the field.

Bait Doll I believe fights against the Trap Card it's targetting. If the text is easily understood as a card activating timing that's incorrect then Bait Doll will destroy it and be shuffled back into the owner of Bait Doll's deck.

The card text on the Trap Card is what's more important. Bait Doll's text is easy to understand, just varies upon the Trap Card.

For example Bait Doll wouldn't do a single thing to Secret Barrel but it would do something to Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force, etc.. Cards that have to have a certain requirement met before they can be activated. If those requirements aren't met then the timing is incorrect and the card will be destroyed by Bait Doll and will be shuffled into the deck.

As for Cost Effects such as Wall of Revealing Light, it would basically make that Cost Effect non-existant when Bait Doll is used on it. So Skill Drain is pretty much the only card I can think of that will do anything that's actually a Cost Effect for a Trap Card that doesn't have any major timing issues. (I feel like I've missed something on that one.)

So have I understood this correctly or do I have to pay attention a little bit more? =) I don't mind if I do, which is learning something about of my the more interesting cards in the game. *Thinks about messing around with it after learning as much as possible about it. Bait Doll/Extermination deck.*

xD Muwhaahhah!! Anti-Spell Fragrance! xD Muwhahaha!!
 
I think you've got it down Tkwiget. That's pretty much how I'm seeing it at this point. Just keep in mind the activation costs of the trap (if any), the activation requirements of the trap (if any), and the resolution of the trap.

Raigeki Break is another example of a card you don't want to Bait Doll. Your opponent doesn't have to pay the discard and they get to destroy a card on the field. Come to think of it, it may be a tasty way to bait your own.

Return from the Different Dimension would be another, no half the lifepoint cost, SS the RFPd monsters. Oooh...ideas there for my RFP deck...but now I'm rambling. 8^D
 
Once again soley using text to support a stance is a bit shaky.

It seems to me as a simple cost, and cost is an activation requirement or a sort of trigger (don't read too much into that).

However, it is different in that it doesn't require a characteristic or event (other than the cost) like Rope of Life (having the monster sent by battle) even though the text might somehow be worded similar to it.

This is a wierd time right now, text is being altered and changed all the time and in the end, consistancy hasn't been reached.
 
novastar said:
Once again soley using text to support a stance is a bit shaky.

It seems to me as a simple cost, and cost is an activation requirement or a sort of trigger (don't read too much into that).

However, it is different in that it doesn't require a characteristic or event (other than the cost) like Rope of Life (having the monster sent by battle) even though the text might somehow be worded similar to it.

This is a wierd time right now, text is being altered and changed all the time and in the end, consistancy hasn't been reached.
So you are under the impression that Bait Doll would force the activation of Elemental Burst?
 
Yes, and it would resolve normally.

It looks like a normal Card Activation cost to me, and since Bait Doll allows you to ignore that it would be fine.

The grey area here is whether you would have to have the 4 required elements face-up for timing to be correct.

If that is true for this card, then the same logic would apply to any effect activated by Bait Doll. So to activate Raigeki Break, you would have to have 1 card in your Hand.

I personally dont feel the "to activate this card" text changes anything. Cost is always part of activation requirements.
 
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