Jinzo and RFDD

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frostmonarch

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If Jinzo is special summoned by the use of Return from a Different Dimension, will he be returned to out-of-play when that turn ends or will he stay on the field like Elemental Hero Wildheart? Also, if he does stay on the field for the next turn, does that mean that the rest of the monsters that were brought with him to the field will stay there as well, seeing as how he would then be negating the effects of trap cards?

Thanks
 
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Soul Exchange, Last Will and Return from the Different Dimension cannot have an additional activation, or else it could be negated by an effect when it occured.

It is nothing more than resolving the complete effect of the card.

Soul Exchange allows you to tribute your opponents monster. When you finally decide to do so, that doesnt activate Soul Exchanges effect, it just resolves it completely. If you never tributed a monster during that turn, then the effect would Disappear.

When Soul Exchange resolves, it is only the card that resolves, not the effect because you have not used it. All you have done is placed a condition for anytime a monster is tributed, which will or will not happen, based upon the turn players actions.

Last Will is the same. If you never send a monster to the Graveyard, the effect of Last Will never resolves, and Disappears.

Return from the Different Dimension summons a group of monsters that are removed from play at the end of the turn. There is no activation at the End Phase. The complete effect of RftDD is to summon and remove. What you do with the monsters in between is up to you, but the effect "condition" is in place until the End Phase of the turn it was activated.

If you place the monster(s) face-down, its no different than a monster summoned by Summoner of Illusions, that is placed face-down. The effect condition is reset.

You can have an effect that has a lingering condition that ties in with the effect.

RftDD -
1. (Effect) Monsters are summoned from RFG.
2. (Cost for Summoning) Monsters will be removed from play at End Phase.
3a. (Lingering Condition) Face-up monsters summoned will be removed. Monsters placed face-down after summoning will remain.
3b. (Lingering Condition) Everything else that resets a condition...
 
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My way of thinking simply must be skewed in how I think these cards function or something. @_@

Conditions are not lingering effects. Conditions are similar to Restrictions, but can't be lifted or negated easily. Lingering effects are effects that activate after a card has been activated. That's the whole meaning behind lingering after all.

When you activate Soul Exchauge, you're using the Card Activation. You activate Cannon Soldier's effect and this is when Soul Exchange's lingering effect activates. This effect is on the field so Imperial Order is activated. It negates the effect of Soul Exchange that's on the field.

Last Will doesn't have a lingering effect that's on the field. So it can't be negated by Imperial Order for that reason.

Return from the Different Dimension has a connection with the face up monsters it brought back. This is a lingering effect that activates and not a condition. Lingering conditions are those that activate at seperate times than the actual card activation. This implies two seperate effects.

=P I never said I was right or was trying to be.
 
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It's not really a matter of being right. Everyone here is stating an opinion, but the opinion that a Spell or Trap Card has a dual activation is misleading, and would imply that it was a chainable event, which it is not, because the card has already resolved and there is nothing to negate or prevent.

Any action the player affected by Soul Exchange takes while the lingering effect/condition is applied does not negate the effect of Soul Exchange. It will only prevent the successful resolution.

I can always activate Compulsory Evacuation Device, and return the monster to hand before the turn player ever tributes a monster. Does it negate Soul Exchange? Not necessarily, it just means that the condition can no longer be met, since I cannot tribute the monster from my opponent's hand.
 
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You can't just activate a card like Compulsory Evacuation Device for no reason. I'm assuming you mean in a chain to something like Cannon Soldier's effect. =P

The problem here is that lingering effects and conditions haven't been defined at all. Sure they're labeled on cards, but they aren't defined at all. Thus, making them loose terms to use. Conditions are more similar to Restrictions. Lingering effects are just that, effects that linger around.

Another thing that might have helped is if they defined Card Activation v.s. Effect Activation instead of pissing all over the subject and driving judges up the wall with this nonsense.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Soul Exchange resolves. Priority is passed to each player and it ends. Compulsory Evacuation Device has no event to respond or chain to. Thus, blantly activating it simply wouldn't make sense. Let us leave that for another time to discuss. =P

The thing to remember here is this game is event driven.
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Whoa... You might want to slow down a minute here. I wasnt going to respond the first time because I figured Jason's response was enough to make you think about what you said, but you are waaaaay off base here.

I dont ever need to chain Compulsory Evacuation Device to anything to activate its effect. I can have it set for a turn, summon a Spirit Monster in Main Phase 1, and activate Compulsory Evacuation Device in Main Phase 2 just because "I" want to return it to hand before the End Phase of the turn.

In the earlier example with Soul Exchange, if you as the turn player activate Soul Exchange, you dont have to tribute a monster at activation, only before the end of your turn. So, if you do nothing, I can activate Compulsory Evacuation Device to return the selected monster to hand. Just because you selected my monster doesnt mean I can't activate an effect to remove it myself, prior to you tributing it.
 
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Jason_C said:
Picky Picky. :p

Alright, hold on...

........

He negates all trap cards that are activated from the hand or the field, even if they resolve elsewhere.

How was that?

<EDIT: Crap. Subject - Verb agreement. One more try:

He negates all trap cards that activate from the hand or the field, even if they resolve elsewhere.

>
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Jinzo only negates Trap Card activated/active on the field... this it. He does not negate Trap Cards actived while in Hand, so no Pharaoh's Treasure.

It's not really being picky, it is very important to understand exactly how the negation works, and what the boundries are.
 
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The "return during the End Phase" is a condition the RfDD places on the monsters when it summons them. It's like the effect puts a marker on them. This is NOT a "lingering effect" so much as it is a timed condition.

At any rate, Jinzo cannot negate this after RfDD has already resolved, and the condition placed.
 
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Jinzo prevents Trap Cards from being activated period. If they're Set on the field they can't be activated. He isn't negating them, he's preventing their activation from every happening. The last sentence of Jinzo's text is for Continuous Trap Cards and in the situations where Jinzo is summoned in the middle of a Chain Block that involves Trap Cards being links of a chain that attempt to resolve after he's on the field.

The problem that I see is more with the problem of how we think lingering effects and conditions mean. Conditions have similar properties as Restrictions. Such as Ultimate Obedient Fiend v.s. Skill Drain ruling. The only different I can see between restrictions and conditions are that conditions are harder to lift from a card.

Lingering effects seem to be more like effects that are being activated at a seperate time than the card activation. Whether they're connected to something on the field or not determines if the effect is on the field or not.

I think I was getting too skewed by myself when I was purposefully disagreeing. Then again, they're excellent points without any defination of what lingering effects and conditions are.
 
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