Jowgen the Spiritualist + Last Turn DOESN'T WORK!

[BobDoily]

Okay I finally remembered where I got that idea. And I found the proof. This is from the Official Specific Questions and Answers section.[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.upperdeckentertainment.com/yugioh/en/faq_card_rulings.aspx?first=I&last=K[/font]
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JOWGEN THE SPIRITUALIST[/font]
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While this card is on the field neither player can activate "Scapegoat", "Monster Reborn", "Call of the Haunted", "Magical Hats", "Dedication through Light and Darkness", or any other card that Special Summons a monster.

now here is the exact official text on Last Turn from the Net-rep Card Registry

This card can only be activated during your opponent's turn when your Life Points are 1000 or less. Select 1 monster on your side of the field and send all other cards on the field and in their respective owners' hands to their respective Graveyards. Your opponent must then Special Summon 1 monster from his/her Deck in face-up Attack Position and attack your selected monster. Any Battle Damage from this battle is treated as 0. The player whose monster remains alone on the field at the End Phase of this turn wins the Duel. Any other case results in a DRAW.

please note that this card is a card that Special Summons a monster, and thanks to the previous ruling Last Turn cannot be activated while Jowgen is on the field.

 

[Tonylaudat]

First of all, I was using the ruling of Forzen Soul in my last post to explain why Last Turn can't create a new phase of gameplay, unless that ruling is wrong. The first ruiling of Frozen soul States "While "Frozen Soul" is in effect, you cannot activate "Last Turn" in the same turn because "Last Turn" includes conducting a Battle Phase."

This means that under the current rulinings, that Last Turn must use all of the current phases of game play, and not create new ones, or else this ruling is outdates.

Second, since the draw phase only requires that you draw one card from your deck, and there is no rule stating that the draw is the only thing to occur, cards that do things before or after you draw (which in the draw step), are not in violation or contradicution to game mechanics.

Third, how can the effect of Last Turn be seperated out like that, and not be in violation of game mechanics. This would contradict cyber jar's ruling which states "If "Sangan" or "Witch of the Black Forest" was destroyed by "Cyber Jar"'s effect, Special Summon monsters first and then complete "Sangan"'s effect."
While the "new ruling" on Last Turn doesn't litterly change how the card works, it does on a practial level. Before, a Lasat Turn player only needed to be concerned about the monster's on the field. Now however, they would also have to be conserned about the monsters in their opponet's hand as well, for a Sinsiter Serpent now accuse a draw, and a Wondering Mummy now assures that the Last Turn player is lost.

The new ruling makes no sense, since Last Turn is the only card whose effect is spread out like this. There is nothing in the game mechanics to support this. The only think that this seems to do, is to try to cut down on the number of first turn kill Last Turn decks, where are fairly unstable to begin with. Also, who gets to choose when your opponet gets to special summon the monster, and when the battle occurs? Would it be the turn player, or the player who activatied Last Turn? Doesn't it all have to occur in one chain link and in doing so, force the turn into Main Phase 2? If not, then why can't we simply spread out the effects of all other Trap and Magic cards that have more than one effect?

Finally, you can't chain anything to your opponets selecting of a monster, becasue that occurs at resolution, not activation, the card has arleady resloved, and nothing else can be chanied to it.

 

[chaosruler]

Deck-Out - you couldn't Special Summon a BLS-EotB via Last Turn, even if you possess the necessary chaos food in your graveyard

also, sinister serpent would ensure a victory for the non-Last Turn player, tony

-chaosruler

 

[Raijinili]

This is my "OMG WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU EVEN THINKING TRYING TO DEFY THE LAWS OF THE GAME WITH WRONG INFO AND BAD PRECEDENTS?" face: -_-

The new ruling makes no sense, since Last Turn is the only card whose effect is spread out like this.

Last Turn is also the only effect able to force an attack in any phase, no?

Also, who gets to choose when your opponet gets to special summon the monster, and when the battle occurs? Would it be the turn player, or the player who activatied Last Turn?

Um. No. The special summon happens as soon as the response chain for the Last Turn chain is done. And the battle happens as soon as the response chain for the special summon is done. Your opponent can't so much as activate Sinister Serpent's effect until the battle is done.

Doesn't it all have to occur in one chain link and in doing so, force the turn into Main Phase 2?

So... you're saying you can't play Last Turn if your opponent already went into the End Phase? Funny, I'm pretty sure we can.

If not, then why can't we simply spread out the effects of all other Trap and Magic cards that have more than one effect?

The BATTLE is the important factor. A battle has its own responses and trigger effects, which each require their own chains and can't be held in the middle of this one.

 

[bishop]

Second, since the draw phase only requires that you draw one card from your deck, and there is no rule stating that the draw is the only thing to occur, cards that do things before or after you draw (which in the draw step), are not in violation or contradicution to game mechanics.

Actually, there is a mechanic in the game that says nothing happens prior to the drawing of a card with the caveat being, so far, two exceptions that are exceptions not the rule.

The new ruling makes no sense, since Last Turn is the only card whose effect is spread out like this. There is nothing in the game mechanics to support this.

Apparently, the game designer differs with you on this issue. And, since it's his game, he can create an exception to a rule or a mechanic at anytime.

Finally, you can't chain anything to your opponets selecting of a monster, becasue that occurs at resolution, not activation, the card has arleady resloved, and nothing else can be chanied to it.

So far as I recall, this is correct.

 

[novastar]

On an interesting note,

The most recent GBA game actually has a fully functioning Chain Point prior to the draw, at the very beginning of the Draw Phase.

It could be a bug, or it could be an additional Chain Point that they are eventually going to bring into the TCG.

I have to admit i was surprised when i noticed it. I've always felt that they should have one, I see no reason not to.

 

[chaosruler]

Also, you can pull back Sinister Serpent, enter your regular Battle Phase, then attack Jowgen...., hence, the non-Last Turn palyer wins, excepting that Last Turn was activated prior to the Non-LT-player's Battle Phase ^_^

-chaosruler

 

[icecold]

i have question if a player summons Dmoc with last turn and takes say geki with the effect and attacks labberinth wall can he use the raigeki after the attack?

 

[novastar]

Also, you can pull back Sinister Serpent, enter your regular Battle Phase, then attack Jowgen...., hence, the non-Last Turn palyer wins, excepting that Last Turn was activated prior to the Non-LT-player's Battle Phase ^_^

-chaosruler

As far as i know, that's perfectly fine as long as Last Turn was activated before or during the Standby Phase.

You can still summon Sinister and conduct a regular Battle Phase.

 

[Raijinili]

Yes, as long as Last Turn was not activated in the End Phase.

 

[Tonylaudat]

I'd still like to know what the difference is between, the battle phase which is entered via Last Turn, and the "regular battle phase" that everyone is talking about. Where does Last Turn mention that it give you opponet an extra battle phase? As far as I know, unless a card grants a player an extra battle phase, then they are limited to one per turn.

It has also been argued that Last Turn creates a seperate Phase in which the Special summon and attack occur. I don't see how this can be, given that "While "Frozen Soul" is in effect, you cannot activate "Last Turn" in the same turn because "Last Turn" includes conducting a Battle Phase." This is present in both the rulings for Last Turn and Frozen Soul. Thus, unless this ruling is untrue, how can Last Turn not involve conducting a battle phase.

If I am understaning everything correctly, what is essentially being said is that Last Turn works as it always has, expect instead of everything happening in one chain link, it now happens as a chain link, and two response chains to the initial chain link, which gives us time for monster effect that need to resolve to resolve.

Since Last Turn doesn't work if Forzen Soul is active, I believe it is say to say that Last Turn involes the conducation of an actual battle phase, not simply a seperate game phase in which a battle happens to occur.
Since this is the case, Last Turn must force players into a battle phase (since the battle is part of Last Turn's effect. Thus, if Last Turn was activated before the battle phase, it must force both players out of whatever phase it was activated (after the Intial Chain, and most likely after the first responce chain in which you opponet gets to special summon a monster) into battle phase (also hitting every other phase along the way, since these phases can not be skipped). There are cards that can force players out of a phase, and force them to skip a phase, so I don't see who it is that big of a stretch for an effect to force players to enter a phase. In fact, Beserk Guerilla will force a player to enter battle phase, even if other cards on the field prevent them from attacking with it.

This has two every important effect. First, it prevents the non-Last Turn Player from being able to get their Sinister Serpent out of the graveyard, since the turn is no longer in the Standby Phase (unless it is ruled that they can get it after the initial Chain Link, but before the First Response Chain. Note that this would only apply if Last Turn was activated during you opponent's Standby phase. If Last Turn is activated in response to you opponent drawing a card, then you are still in the draw phase.).

Secondly, since Last Turn forces players directly into battle phase (with the only stops being between the initial chain link, and the two response chains to allow any possible effects from effect monster's to occur), even if the non-Last Turn player was to get a Witch, Sagan, of Sinister effect, they would not be able to summon the monster gotten by that effect until after the battle. For those who might think that it is possible to summon them after the battle from Last Turn, and then enter your normal battle phase to then attack the Last Turn Player (or most likely their Jowgen), I would argue that Last Turn doesn't grant you an extra battle phase, it only requires that the battle phase be entered, and the battle (if any conducted). Since the battle phase has already passed (Remember, even if the non-Last Turn Player has nothing to attack with, he/she must still enter battle phase as Last Turn states that he/she must Special Summon a monster [if possible] and attack. I base this off of the ruling of Berserk Guerrilla Vs Gravity Bind, in which it was ruled that the player with the Guerilla still had to enter battle phase, even if their opponet's active gravity Bind would prevent the Guerilla from attacking.) There is nothing I can see that would allow the non-Last Turn Player to enter a second battle phase (or even attack twice). Because this is the case, the non-Last Turn Player would not be able to attack with a monster that that had in hand at the end of the battle caused by Last Turn (since the turn would move from battle phase to Main Phase 2). They could however Normal Summon it to the field, and the game would then end as a draw.

I don't see how a Turn in which Last Turn is activated can end up in any other phase other than Main Phase 2 after Last Turn's effect is finished. I base this off of the fact that Last Turn requires that a battle between two monsters (which even if the non-Last Turn player has nothing to attack with must still enter battle phase), which can only occur in the battle phase (since this is the only phase in the game in which battles can occur), after the battle is over, the turn must now be in Main Phase 2 (since this is the phase in which one enters after the battle phase).

I would also argue that since Last Turn need a battle phase in order to be activated, that this card could not be activated during a turn in which the non-Last Turn player has already conducted his/her battle phase, as there is nothing in the card text of rulings that allows Last Turn to in effect create its own battle phase. It would be like trying to play Soul Exchange after having conducted you battle phase.

 

[Raijinili]

As far as I know, unless a card grants a player an extra battle phase, then they are limited to one per turn.

Exactly.

Since Last Turn doesn't work if Forzen Soul is active, I believe it is say to say that Last Turn involes the conducation of an actual battle phase

Exactly. It's a special battle phase.

Thus, if Last Turn was activated before the battle phase, it must force both players out of whatever phase it was activated (after the Intial Chain, and most likely after the first responce chain in which you opponet gets to special summon a monster) into battle phase (also hitting every other phase along the way, since these phases can not be skipped).

As you said above, cards can create battle phases. So no.

Secondly, since Last Turn forces players directly into battle phase...

Which it doesn't...

...(with the only stops being between the initial chain link, and the two response chains to allow any possible effects from effect monster's to occur), even if the non-Last Turn player was to get a Witch, Sagan, of Sinister effect, they would not be able to summon the monster gotten by that effect until after the battle.

Yes. You can't summon a monster (except through effect) during a battle phase. Your point?

For those who might think that it is possible to summon them after the battle from Last Turn, and then enter your normal battle phase to then attack the Last Turn Player (or most likely their Jowgen), I would argue that Last Turn doesn't grant you an extra battle phase, it only requires that the battle phase be entered, and the battle (if any conducted).

Except... its effect isn't to skip to the battle phase. If it were, it would say so. As every single skip-phase card says so. On the other hand, it says to conduct a battle, and since it doesn't say to skip phases, you stay in that phase and battle.

I would also argue that since Last Turn need a battle phase in order to be activated, that this card could not be activated during a turn in which the non-Last Turn player has already conducted his/her battle phase, as there is nothing in the card text of rulings that allows Last Turn to in effect create its own battle phase.

And on the original Japanese card, it simply said that the two monsters battle. It didn't say "the summoned monster attacks". And yet, the effect is interpreted that way, because it is IMPLIED. As you yourself said it IMPLIED that it skips to the battle phase. But I would win in this battle of implications since:
A) Konami ruled it my way, and
B) While other cards that skip phases actually DO skip phases, SAY that they skip phases, this one does not. On the other hand, NO card known creates phases within phases.
C) According to your theory, you can't activate Last Turn in the second Main Phase or the End Phase. Mm-hmm.

Conclusion: Its effect isn't to skip to the battle phase. If it were, it would say so. As every single skip-phase card says so. On the other hand, it says to conduct a battle, and since it doesn't say to skip phases, you stay in that phase and battle.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Since this is the case, Last Turn must force players into a battle phase (since the battle is part of Last Turn's effect. Thus, if Last Turn was activated before the battle phase, it must force both players out of whatever phase it was activated (after the Intial Chain, and most likely after the first responce chain in which you opponet gets to special summon a monster) into battle phase (also hitting every other phase along the way, since these phases can not be skipped). There are cards that can force players out of a phase, and force them to skip a phase, so I don't see who it is that big of a stretch for an effect to force players to enter a phase. In fact, Beserk Guerilla will force a player to enter battle phase, even if other cards on the field prevent them from attacking with it.

Last Turn
This card can only be activated during your opponent's turn when your Life Points are 1000 or less. Select 1 monster on your side of the field and send all other cards on the field and in their respective owners' hands to their respective Graveyards. Your opponent must then Special Summon 1 monster from his/her Deck in face-up Attack Position and attack your selected monster. Any Battle Damage from this battle is treated as 0. The player whose monster remains alone on the field at the End Phase of this turn wins the Duel. Any other case results in a DRAW.

And where on this card does it say that you can only activate it during a Main Phase 1, Standby Phase or Draw Phase? Where on this card does it say it cannot be activated during a Main Phase 2 or End Phase? It doesn't. The only activation requirement it has is for it to be your opponent's turn and your Life Points be less than 1000. Honesty, Tony, not to be disrespectful, but your making this a lot harder then it needs to be.