King Wanghu vs. Cyberdark

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DarkLogicianOfCaos

Eschew Obfuscation
If King Wanghu is F/U on the field, What happens if you attempt to summon a Cyberdark Horn, Keel or Edge? I know that Maurading Captain, even though he is destroyed, gets it's effect. I also know that both are manditory Trigger effects. The way I see it, they both should Trigger at the same time, so SEGOC, Turn player goes first, then Opponent's, so if the opponent owns the Wanghu it would reolve first, so Cyberdark Whatsit would be destroyed before its effect resolves, but if the TP owns both, then he gets to put them in any order, so he could place Wanghu first and Cyberdark Whatsit second, so that when Wanghu Resolves, Cyberdark is now increased to its new ATK. Am I off on this?
 
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Once King Tiger Wangchu activates it will destroy the monster regardless of any chained card that modifies a card's ATK.

So it doesn't matter what order the card's go, Cyberdark Keel will be destroyed, as it had >1400 attack when summoned (And after applying any pre-existing modifiers)
 
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If Wanghu's effect is CL2 (and the Cyberdark effect CL1), then the Cyberdark monster would be destroyed and it's effect would resolve without doing anything, since the effect is bound to the monster.

If Wanghu's effect is CL1, then the Cyberdark monster would already have increased it's ATK before Wanghu's effect resolve, and Wanghu's effect would resolve without doing anything (given the Cyberdark monster's ATK is boosted beyond 1400).

Edit:
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Once King Tiger Wangchu activates it will destroy the monster regardless of any chained card that modifies a card's ATK.

So it doesn't matter what order the card's go, Cyberdark Keel will be destroyed, as it had >1400 attack when summoned (And after applying any pre-existing modifiers)
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Like Bottomless Trap Hole, the effect of Wanghu can only destroy the monster(s) as long as its/their ATK is 1400 or less (resp. 1500 or more for BTH).
This is because these effects check the ATK values during resolution (see BTH vs BoM, for example).
 
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I'm not sure if that would apply to king Tiger Wanghu as it is not a targetting effect: the wording of the UDE FAQ on the subject might suggest "target" as a game mechanic, all examples are of targetting effects. (Or else its jsut using target as an english word)


On the other hand, the text of Wanghu is:


Destroy all monsters with an ATK of 1400 or less that are Normal Summoned or Special Summoned.


And not:
Destroy all monsters that are Normal Summoned or Special Summoned with an ATK of 1400 or less.


So the text suggests that Martok is right, go rule that it doesn't get destroyed if Cyberdark Keel resolves first.

I'll email UDE about the wording on teh FAQ.
 
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I'm mostly certain that if the attack of the monster is raised above 1400, KTW's effect will miss so the only way you'll be able to get a Cyberdark monster to get their effect to resolve first (Link 2 on the chain) would be if the player summoning the monster controls both and can then determine which link will be link 1 and 2. Otherwise if the opponent has the KTW, the turn player's effect will be 1 (the CD Monster) and KTW will be 2nd. Of course you could chain Rush Recklessly or Divine Wrath to KTW as well, but that's beside the point.
 
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The fact that effects form a chain suggest that Wanghu's is not continuous (it can be chained to, so..... (see: "¢ If "King Tiger Wanghu" is on the field along with Trigger Effect monsters such as "Mysterious Puppeteer", "Ryu-Kishin Clown", "Sonic Bird", and "Dragon Seeker", then they form a chain.) So the question would be, does it count ATK when it activates, or resolves?
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
So the question would be, does it count ATK when it activates, or resolves?
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Actually both.

If the summoned monster doesn't have 1400 ATK or less while the game state says "a summon occurred", Wanghu's effect doesn't activate. And at resolution, Wanghu's effect will only kill monsters with 1400 ATK or less.

Likewise, BTH can only be activated as a response if the summoned monster has 1500 ATK or more. And at resolution, BTH will only remove monsters with 1500 ATK or more.
 
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The Cyber Dark monster will adjust to its new attack if applicable, and if it is chain link 2, than KTW's effect will resolve without changing anything.
 
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Martok said:
Actually both.

If the summoned monster doesn't have 1400 ATK or less while the game state says "a summon occurred", Wanghu's effect doesn't activate. And at resolution, Wanghu's effect will only kill monsters with 1400 ATK or less.

Likewise, BTH can only be activated as a response if the summoned monster has 1500 ATK or more. And at resolution, BTH will only remove monsters with 1500 ATK or more.
Click to expand...

"Trap Hole", yes, definitely, but you can't say for certain that it applies to Bottomless Trap Hole.

Bottomless Trap Hole is non-targetting, and there was a ruling in the opposite situation that suggested it doesn't work the way Trap Hole does.

Old Ruling:
Summon monster (1500+ ATK)
Activate Bottomless Trap Hole
Chain Call of the Haunted (to Summon 1500+ ATK)
Bottomless resolves to destroy and remove both monsters.

Suggesting that once Bottomless Trap Hole activates, it only checks as it resolves and throughout,

Now although the ruling is changed, it doesn't eliminate the mechanic of adding a new monster to destroy; it only eliminates the possiblity of destroying a monster not summoned at the same time:

So for example:

Special Summon 2 monsters with Return From the DIfferent Dimension, perhaps Gemini Elf and Don Zaloog.
Activate Bottomless Trap HOle
Chain Rush Recklessly (Target Don Zaloog)

It's likely that bottomless trap hole can destroy DOn Zaloog in this situation.

Now Bottomless Trap Hole is a card where the player decides to respond to a summon, King Tiger Wanghu is an automatic effect, and thus is likely to be ruled different. The default is as mentioned on the FAQ is that conditions only need to be correct at activation, but the ATK value consideration likely makes it an exception as bottomless trap hole.

It'll likely only concern itself with the ATK at activation at all, or once its legally activated only concern itself with the ATK at resolution, not both.

The card activation and eligibility about "Trap Hole" is likely not going to apply in the end, but is the most certain answer providable as there's nothing conclusively to decide between the other 2 possibilities.
 
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Since Bottomless Trap Hole is non-targeting, it would make sense that it looks for the cards that fit the requirement at resolution. So in your example with Don Zaloog, he should be rfp since Rush Recklessly resolves first. Likewise, if I chain Shrink to the activation instead, then the monster I targeted with Shrink should not be removed since the ATK is < 1500 in this case.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Old Ruling:
Summon monster (1500+ ATK)
Activate Bottomless Trap Hole
Chain Call of the Haunted (to Summon 1500+ ATK)
Bottomless resolves to destroy and remove both monsters.
Click to expand...
Per the old ruling only the LAST monster special summoned would have been destroyed, not both.
 
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Hmm...this seems like it falls under the same ruling vs. Wanghu as Command Knight.

If a monster's ATK when it is Summoned is less than 1400 due to the effect of other cards, such as a Field Spell Card that reduces its ATK, it is destroyed by "King Tiger Wanghu"'s effect (so apply all existing modifiers before determining if the monster is destroyed). If "Command Knight" is Summoned, it increases its own ATK to 1600 before "King Tiger Wanghu" can destroy it.
Click to expand...

Some folks might argue that it actually falls under the ruling for Exiled Force...

If "King Tiger Wanghu" is on the field, and "Exiled Force" is Summoned, "King Tiger Wanghu"'s effect immediately activates. Since "Exiled Force" cannot be chained, "King Tiger Wanghu" will destroy "Exiled Force" before the turn player can Tribute "Exiled Force" using its effect.
Click to expand...

But the key difference is that Exiled's effect is OPTiONAL, whereas Cyberdark (whatever)'s happens at the moment it's summoned no matter what, and as soon as the effect resolves, it's ATK will (hopefully!) be above 1400, at which point Wanghu's effect strikes out.


Of course, I'm not a judge, so don't take this as written law or anything. :p
 
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Command Knight's effect is continuous, so it applies immediately, while the effect of the Cyberdark's applies when their effect resolves(= the boost is delayed). So I dont think you could extrapolate from Command Knight.

Also Exiled Force's effect is ignition, and it doesnt modifies its own ATK so it also seems irrelevant here.

The main question is if King Tiger Wanghu checks the ATK at resolution as well.
 
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I would say it has to since it is a non-targeting effect as well (Play Dimension Fusion to bring back a bunch of weenies only to have your opponent flip up Call of the Haunted to bring back KTW... all the weenies die).
 
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KTW would be already face-up when you summon those monsters, and since it's effect is a trigger it would activate only after the chain anyway, so that you brought it out in a chain doesnt change anything.

The question is, that if KTW activates its effect and then something raises the stats of the affected monsters in a chain, would KTW's effect resolve anyway or not.

And additional monsters brought out in a chain to KTW's effect wouldnt be affected right then per the BTH ruling, so KTW's effect will trigger again and start a new chain for those monsters.(this is a different scenario)
 
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Fury said:
And additional monsters brought out in a chain to KTW's effect wouldnt be affected right then per the BTH ruling, so KTW's effect will trigger again and start a new chain for those monsters.(this is a different scenario)
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Not necessarily, the ruling reversal of Bottomless Trap Hole is not a game mechanic change,

I.E. The old ruling interpreted the text as destroying monsters from here to there, the new ruling only destroys montsers there, (here, when it resolves; there, the summon)

It's still possible for other cards to have a "here to there" interpretation.

However, opinion wise, I wouldn't expect that to happen with Wanghu, since wanghu activates automatically, there's more of an implied connection to the original summon than bottomless trap hole, so it might have an equal or less ruling with bottomless trap hole, but i wouldn't assume it to possibly have the "here to there" ruling.
 
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