Kuriboh vs Injection Fairy Lily

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drzero7

New Member
When does Kuriboh's hand discard effect activate? Like can it be activated during damage step?

Like say I have a blank field and my foe have Lily on his field and he attacks me directly. Do I have to discard Kuriboh before he uses it's "pay 2000LP during damage step" or can I discard Kuriboh after he pumped Lily to 3400ATK?
 
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That's ridiculous. You can't activate it unless you take damage. Damage is not certain until sub-step 4.
skey23 said:
*cough*...."Barrel Behind the Door"...."Ring of Defense"...*cough*
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Effect damage is a completely different animal and the cards tell you when to activate them. It's not comparable...
 
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Kyhotae said:
That's ridiculous. You can't activate it unless you take damage.
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The text never says that.

Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0

Make is present tense, imperatif mood. The very nature of the imperatif means its talking about something that has to happen in the future (usually near future). e.g. If i tell you to "go to the store" it means you're still at home.

SInce the sentence is present tense, to add a past tense into the sentence you would need to make it "perfect".

So if it were talking about something that happened; it would have to go perfect (or better), it would say "was inflicted".

But it doesn't so you're left with the word "inflicted" that its practically meaningless in the sentence, its closer to an adjective than a verb in meaning (although closer to a verb in structure))

The only reason its there, is perhaps to make it clear that it protects only your Life points, and not your opponents Life Points. (i.e. " Make Battle Damage from your opponent's monster 0" isn't quite clear)

Or to avoid a broken sentence: "Make battle damage to your lifepoints from your opponent's monster 0" doesn't quite say how it gets from the monster to your lifepoints.

But its consistant with other card effects e.g. "Cross Counter"
Cross Counter
Normal Trap
"¦ the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. "¦

And the ruling clearly shows is activated before damage calculation: "¢ You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation but after flipping the attacked monster face-up. The "Cross Counter" card is sent to the Graveyard after resolving its effect and destroying the attacking monster.
 
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Hmmm, I have an interesting mystery here. I went back and read the Detailed Damage Step chart posted by Kevin Tewart on the judge site and then I read mine. My Detailed Damage Step chart is slightly different. Here's what mine says:

After the "Inflict damage to players' Life Points" I have Amazoness Swords Woman and Kuriboh in parenthesis. Neither of these 2 monsters are included in Tewart's original post.

What I recall was users were asking when certain effects occured and this was what was posted.

Anybody else have a similar chart? or am I just hallucinating?

I can see the effect of Kuriboh being applied at the End of Substep 3. during Damage Calculation; however, Kuriboh's effect can always be applied after Injection Fairy Lily pumps or not. I know of no situation where the NTP player would be forced to declare the use of Kuriboh, before IFL owner decides to boost or not.

I disagree with DaGuy, that effects cannot occur in Substep 4. Where or when would you apply the effect of Amazoness Swords Woman? Damage is NOT applied in Substep 3; it's only calculated there.

doc

P.S. Kyhotae, you're still right even if I am hallucinating...
 
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I don't have the link to the chart. I never said effects could't happen in sub-step 4. They do all the time. They are trigger effects. This is where Kuriboh's effect actually happens. I'm saying you have to discard him before the end of sub-step 3. I haven't seen any rulings where you can activate anything manually in sub-step 4. Kuriboh's discard is a manual activation.
 
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Amazoness Swords Woman is a continuous effect,

Damage sub-Step 4 would be:

A)-Inflict Damage to the LifePoints
(amazoness woman/Kuriboh/Cross Counter affect/usurp this)

B)-THEN activate trigger/check for chaining. (Don Zaloog/ Airknight Parshath)

But if the Life Points hit Zero in part A, there would be no opportunity for Part B.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
The text never says that.

Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0

Make is present tense, imperatif mood. The very nature of the imperatif means its talking about something that has to happen in the future (usually near future). e.g. If i tell you to "go to the store" it means you're still at home.

SInce the sentence is present tense, to add a past tense into the sentence you would need to make it "perfect".

So if it were talking about something that happened; it would have to go perfect (or better), it would say "was inflicted".

But it doesn't so you're left with the word "inflicted" that its practically meaningless in the sentence, its closer to an adjective than a verb in meaning (although closer to a verb in structure))
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I've been thinking about this, and the more I think about it, the more sense it doesn't make. By this reasoning, "Kuriboh" could be discarded in the End Phase of a turn that you took battle damage to reduce it to zero. We all know that is not correct. You discard "Kuriboh" to change the damage you just took to 0. If you didn't take damage, you can't activate his effect.

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Cross Counter
Normal Trap
"¦ the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. "¦

And the ruling clearly shows is activated before damage calculation: "¢ You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation but after flipping the attacked monster face-up. The "Cross Counter" card is sent to the Graveyard after resolving its effect and destroying the attacking monster.
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Also, "Cross Counter" is a trap that has way different timing than "Kuriboh", so you can't really compare the effects.
 
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Kyhotae said:
How exactly are you supposed to make the battle damage inflicted 0 if no damage has been inflicted yet? That's why I posted what I did. I read the effect. In order to make battle damage something, you have to have battle damage in the first place. That doesn't occur until sub-step 4.
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Hmmm, Wabku.

skey23 said:
*cough*...."Barrel Behind the Door"...."Ring of Defense"...*cough*
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Actually, BBtD must be activated in responce to an EFFECT that inflicts bamage, not AFTER it does it.

Kyhotae said:
That's ridiculous. You can't activate it unless you take damage.
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I do not see this implied in it's text. But as with HS and a clear field, I can see this.

Kuriboh is quoted to have said:

Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 1 Star / ATK 300 / DEF 200)
Discard this card from your hand. Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0. You can only use this effect during your opponent's Battle Phase.
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This only limmits its activation to the "opponent's Battle Phase". So, you could activate it in responce to an attack declariation, during the damage step or any substep. As a point, who cares? The effect will apply in the Inflect Damage Substep.

NOW, if as above (see Kyhotae part), you can ONLY activate it after damage is assured, that would limmit it's activation a little more. I would view it as in substep 3, Calculate Damage. After calculating damage (after IFL's effect) and damage is assured, then Kuriboh's activation requirement is met and can activate and it's cost is paid (discard).

The thing is, can you activate it AFTER the damage is done? In Sub Step 4; Apply damage, the first thing to happen is to APPLY DAMAGE. From it's text, you probally can activate it; however, why? It's too late. Like MST'ing a Dark Hole. Kuriboh does NOT say NEGATE, so it does not "reverse" the damage after it's done (just like destroying DH with MST dosn't NEGATE it).

How about this folks?
 
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Actually, "Barrel Behind the Door" must be activated in response to an ACTIVATION of an effect that will do effect damage, it does not correlate to "Kuriboh" at all.

Now that I look at the effect again, there doesn't seem to be any set time to activate the effect as long as you're in your opponent's Battle Phase. Presumably, you could activate it during the "Send cards to the Graveyard" sub-step if you wanted to...
 
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Kyhotae said:
Actually, "Barrel Behind the Door" must be activated in response to an ACTIVATION of an effect that will do battle damage, it does not correlate to "Kuriboh" at all.
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True, that is why I was woundering why he made refference with BBtB. AND yes, the ACTIVATION and not the effect, should have said ... immedeatly after the activation of an effect that .....


Kyhotae said:
Now that I look at the effect again, there doesn't seem to be any set time to activate the effect as long as you're in your opponent's Battle Phase. Presumably, you could activate it during the "Send cards to the Graveyard" sub-step if you wanted to...
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Yes, however, if you wait that long, wouldn't it be too late since it does not say negate the damage and make it 0??? As printed, (and you know they would NEVER print wrong) it says "make the battle damage .... 0". So it would have to be ACTIVATED before the damage is actualy inflicted would it not??

Since Applying Damage is a 'game mechanic', such as summoning (and you can not respond to a summon), you could not 'respond with Kuriboh since it does not say "negate". ie, BTH being activated after Zaborg does not negate so Zaborg's effect is still applied. Thus, the damage is still done.
 
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Kyhotae said:
I wouldn't think so, because it's making it 0. It doesn't need to negate it because it's now 0.
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So, if I had 900 LP's , you atk with Sangon, I could wait (even though I lost) and then discard Fuzzie Furrball and I "back in Da game"?

I still think, without the 'negate' part, as Forceback/Horn/SolumJudg do to bust Jinzo, it can not reverse what is already done.

UNLESS, they BKSS!!! :shudder
 
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Kuriboh is a Multi-Trigger effect that you can activate during Sub-Step 3 of the Damage Step; which is calculating damage. You can respond to entering that step by activating Kuriboh. So there's a response point, just not a very big one. You simply can't activate Kuriboh during the second part of Damage Calculations; which is applying the damage to the player(s).


Also, I'd like to point out that Barrel Behind the Door doesn't work on "Battle Damage" since its card text says "(except Battle Damage)" too.

You can only activate this card when an effect that inflicts damage to your Life Points is activated (except Battle Damage). Switch the Effect Damage you receive to your opponent's Life Points.
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But that's the controversy, isn't it? Skey already made that assertion, ygo_doc and I have said that it activates in sub-step 4. Your repeating what Simon said doesn't really prove anything...

I edited my post about "Barrel Behind the Door" too. It was a typo. I meant effect damage.
 
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Kyhotae said:
But that's the controversy, isn't it? Skey already made that assertion, ygo_doc and I have said that it activates in sub-step 4. Your repeating what Simon said doesn't really prove anything...

I edited my post about "Barrel Behind the Door" too. It was a typo. I meant effect damage.
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Um, not really.

Kuriboh Ruling said:
"Kuriboh" is activated during damage calculation. If your opponent attacks with "Injection Fairy Lily" and activates her effect, you can chain "Kuriboh" to reduce the damage to zero.
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Lily activates before you apply damage. This is Sub-Step 3.
 
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Yeah, I just did and I still support the ruling as being correct for the time being.

Kuriboh said:
Discard this card from your hand. Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0. You can only use this effect during your opponent's Battle Phase.
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However, the way Kuriboh is worded tells me that it requires to be activated before you apply Battle Damage.

"Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0." seems more like an instruction in what to do with the Battle Damage once you reach the applying damage step. Which tells me the ruling is accurate and correct.

However, that's just me. =/
 
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Yeah. It tells me that you make the damage that was just inflicted 0. You can't make it 0 if there wasn't any battle damage yet. That's where the rub is.
 
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