Limiter Removal / Different Dimension Dragon

[John Danker]

An interesting question was posed to me recently in PM.

As far as I can see it hinges on weather Limiter Removal's destruction of effected monsters is part of the spell card's effect or if it's a condition.

The scenario is this...

D.D. Dragon is face up on the field. DNA Surgery is activated and Limiter Removal is used to boost the new "Machine" to double its ATK.

Later, DNA Surgery is removed from the field in that same turn. DD Dragon is no longer a Machine. Does it keep the ATK boost? Can it be destroyed, considering Limiter Removal is not specifically targetting it?

Now as far as I can see it wouldn't matter weather DNA Surgery was still active in the end phase or not, it would appear to me that if Limiter Removal's destroying monsters it effects in the end phase is indeed part of it's effect then Different Dimension Dragon is safe....if it's a condition then Different Dimension Dragon is destroyed. I've never been a good one at templating so I'm asking for references (which I cannot find) regarding what that part of Limiter Removal is....card effect, condition, or lingering effect (the last of which will probably confuse me futher)

 

[skey23]

"Different Dimension Dragon" cannot be destroyed by an effect unless that effect specifically targets it. The lingering effect of "Limiter Removal" does not target it. So it would not be destroyed during the End Phase.

Now, IF the lingering part of "Limiter Removal" is a condition, then "Different Dimension Dragon" will be destroyed during the End Phase.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Well, again I ask, where is the notion that Limiter Removal might be a lingering condition as opposed to a lingering effect coming from? Everything I've reads points to it being an effect. Is there something that would call that into question specifically?

 

[John Danker]

No evidence that I know of....I was just asking...seeing if anyone had any input that I'm not seeing.

I'd post this to the judge's list but the L3s have been instructed not to post question to the judge's list unless they've come up in a tournament.

 

[skey23]

I'd post this to the judge's list but the L3s have been instructed not to post question to the judge's list unless they've come up in a tournament.

Booo! Booo! I say! :duel_no_j

 

[Digital Jedi]

No evidence that I know of....I was just asking...seeing if anyone had any input that I'm not seeing.

I'd post this to the judge's list but the L3s have been instructed not to post question to the judge's list unless they've come up in a tournament.

WHAAAAATTT!!!!!????

 

[John Danker]

I tend to agree with that sentiment...to me that's like...

I'm working in a factory running a $500,000 machine, I hear a grinding noise...but the machine is working at this point...so I don't say anything to the shop foreman deciding it best to wait until the machine breaks down and stops the production line....THEN it's a problem and worth addressing.

The justification is that there are already too many questions for the volunteers to answer on the judge's list without questions that have come from debates on forums or from "made up" scenarios.

 

[Digital Jedi]

<Smacks forehead> And just when it appeared that questions were being taken more seriously. I'm deeply disappointed with this "policy". This a step backwards, not forwards.

 

[Deathjester]

The justification is that there are already too many questions for the volunteers to answer on the judge's list without questions that have come from debates on forums or from "made up" scenarios.

And yet so many of those debates and scenarios, especially here, often raise some very interesting points that are worth addressing.

At least plenty of users here are glad to do so, of course

 

[ygo doc]

A couple of comments.

First, as posted here changing a monster's type with "DNA Surgery" will not save it from being destroyed by "Limiter Removal's" effect. This was a ruling posted on the former Yahoo judge site. Furthermore, the text of "Limiter Removal" states "...destroy all Monster Cards that were affected by this effect." It does not say destroy all machine type monsters affected by this effect. So any monster that got double ATK by LR is destined for destruction. Now if the machine type monster is no longer a monster at End Phase, then it won't be destroyed OR if the monster is turned face-down or removed from play, its stats are reset and it will not be destroyed.

The lingering part of "Limiter Removal" is a phase effect to be resolved during End Phase using priority, not SEGOC.

Since "Limiter Removal's" destruction effect is non-targeting, it will not destroy "Different Dimension Dragon" at End Phase.

Just to clarify things, L3's are not to post ANY ruling questions on the L3 site. All the ruling questions and answers are on the open judge site. So as far as rulings go, we get them the same time you do, if you read the open judge site.

As John has posted, we recently received a question guideline to share with lower level judges to help reduce the overwhelming number of questions they receive on the website. UDE now wants to limit the judge site to specific questions and issues resulting from judging a tournament.

If you have specific questions concerning certain cards or gameplay, they want you to e-mail entertainment@upperdeck.com.

We have been specifically asked NOT to post ruling questions that are argued on message boards and we should share this information with other judges to not do so as well. If the situation came up at a tournament, you may ask the question or use the e-mail address above.

COG users are lucky as many of the L3's here (John, Simon, myself) are active on the other site as well. We are all first and foremost advocates of the game, but we all bear responsibilities and duties as L3 judges as well. For me that means I don't always agree with certain UDE policies, but I will help to implement or enforce them.

Glenn "doc" Cheng

 

[John Danker]

Yeah <smirk> What he said.

How does the Military saying go? I don't agree with what you're saying but I'll defend your right to voice yourself in free speech?

I don't always agree with what UDE / Konami sets for rules, guidelines, and policies either....but that's not my job as a judge for them (even though I certainly do voice my opinion on the matters to them) As ygo doc said, we're suppose to help implement those rules, guidelines, and policies....even if we don't agree with them.

As far as the lingering effect of Limiter Removal. I must admit I have done little study of instances of monsters being able to avoid lingering effects. Can anyone site other instances of a monster being able to avoid lingering effects?

 

[anthonyj]

It sounds like a "we don't want to answer the hard questions so wait until the situation actually happens in a tournament and you don't know the proper answer and then you can ask us" policy.

As a judge you should be attempting to proactively understand the game so that you can make the correct ruling when you do run into the scenario. The "don't post questions that have been argued about on other boards" I read as "if the answer is not able to be directly discerned from the rulings that are already available then obviously it is going to take work for us to answer and why would we want to do that?"

I'm actually all for UDE stepping out of the answering hard questions arena altogether. Just give us a way to ask Konami directly since these "hard to answer questions" are just being forwarded to them to get an answer by UDE anyway.

 

[John Danker]

That makes the most sense to me as well. Why have a middle man? If UDE hires translators to convert Japanesse to English for the card text, doesn't it make sense that Konami would hire English and other language translators and answer all the questions directly? I never have been a fan of the middle man. It's like the old "phone game" where a little bit is lost every time something is past on.

 

[squid]

What comes to mind is only:

When an Archfiend is equipped with "Heart of Clear Water", it is not destroyed if it was targetted by "Battle-Scarred" and "Battle-Scarred is removed from the field

But, even then, the effect of Battle-Scarred is a triggered effect, not lingering.

On a tangent, Is After the Struggle a Lingering effect, and does it target? If it does, will a monster involved in Battle avoid destruction from After the Struggle? If not targetting, will Different Dimension Dragon avoid destruction?

 

[ygo doc]

"After the Struggle" (formerly "After Genocide") is non-targeting. An effect that allows you to directly pick a target at activation can be targeting. An effect that picks targets by criteria (ex: ATK strength, recent battle, 4 stars or more) will not be targeting.

doc

 

[Digital Jedi]

It sounds like a "we don't want to answer the hard questions so wait until the situation actually happens in a tournament and you don't know the proper answer and then you can ask us" policy.

Yes, because why should those of us who don't engage in tournament or play the same decks over and over again get answers and resolutions to our questions? We don't deserve answers to our questions because we are not competitive players. Just customers.

As a judge you should be attempting to proactively understand the game so that you can make the correct ruling when you do run into the scenario. The "don't post questions that have been argued about on other boards" I read as "if the answer is not able to be directly discerned from the rulings that are already available then obviously it is going to take work for us to answer and why would we want to do that?"

Yes, why be prepared for scenarios when you can just wait till it comes up, arbitrarily make a ruling and THEN find out if you were right or wrong? Why have a database of all the answers already set up, when we can just make it up as we go?

I'm actually all for UDE stepping out of the answering hard questions arena altogether. Just give us a way to ask Konami directly since these "hard to answer questions" are just being forwarded to them to get an answer by UDE anyway.

What? But, but, that would be eliminating three middle men, the internet, the judges who read it and the translators who translate it. Why would want to have things so streamlined?



You see, I can't even play Devil's Advocate and have any of this make sense. :biggrin_j

biggrin_j on the outside. :cog_mad_j on the inside.)

 

[Entropy]

It's for the Japanese game, but:

http://dmcomet.net/eoj_faq.txt

[Deification of Light] v. [Assistant of Strength - Mars]
(?) Mars would not be destroy by this card's effect, nor it's attack strength would be halved. This is due to that Mars effect (negate all Magic effect) would happen right after it's special summon.

Deification of Light = Celestial Transformation

Quick! We need someone to play out this situation in a tournament!

 

[Digital Jedi]

Quick! We need someone to play out this situation in a tournament!

Oh my gosh! I can easily imagine this becoming our mantra from now on. This could quickly replace "Because Konami Said So!"

 

[squid]

"After the Struggle" (formerly "After Genocide") is non-targeting. An effect that allows you to directly pick a target at activation can be targeting. An effect that picks targets by criteria (ex: ATK strength, recent battle, 4 stars or more) will not be targeting.

doc

thank you.

So, After the Struggle/Genocide is not targetting, but it would be a lingering effect, I assume.

So let me reiterate my question in response to John Danker's last question:

Would Different Dimension Dragon be able to avoid the lingering effect of After the Struggle? (if so, I should find some DDDragons for fun)

 

[anthonyj]

Oh my gosh! I can easily imagine this becoming our mantra from now on. This could quickly replace "Because Konami Said So!"

LOL! We'll have to set up specialty decks and compete against one another over and over again until we can achieve the problem situation and then we can rush to submit the question and get ----

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the same eternal wait for the tough answers we always had before. They act like somehow this is going to cut down on the backlog. Ha! They've got time to answer the simple stuff like Nobleman of Crossout and Return from the Different Dimension (maybe because it actually says in the rulings that the monster is removed face-up, but hey why not take the time to answer the no brainer stuff).

Honestly does UDE think that anyone believes this is an attempt to streamline a working system instead of just another roadblock to getting answers for questions which they do not have the answers to. Is it too much to ask that there be some source of information about the game mechanics available to those who truly do their best to learn and understand the game mechanics?

Don't pay any attention to what they do in Japan, we don't do things their way we do them our way.

Don't ask us any questions unless it is something you have already had to make a ruling on without the necessary information in a sanctioned tournament (thereby limiting the card interactions to 3-4% of the available cards in the game since those are the only cards frequently seen in the tournaments).

And don't remember any of the things we've previously said so we can deny them later.

Okay so they haven't publicly said the last one lately, but it is still true. UDE is doing everything they can to make themselves even less useful than they already were. A truly amazing feat in my opinion as I thought they were only one step up from completely useless before. But apparently there are sub-steps I had been previously unaware of.