mad reloader vs darkworld monster??

M

matrix_sentinal

pro card collector
mad reloader says:

When this card is destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard, send 2 cards from your hand to the Graveyard to draw 2 cards.

so if a discard two dark world monsters (example goldd), can i special summon them on my side of the field yes or no??

i say yes becase it is not a cost, am i right about this or not


plaese help


tnk you
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
You have to be a little more patient then that. This time of day most of our members are either at work or in school. I only just saw your post just now, and I'm online more then anyone. Questions don't always get answered in less then an hour. Sometimes they get answered later in the day.

It's true that Mad Reloder's effect is not a cost, but Dark World monsters have to be discarded to the Graveyard to get their effect. Mad Reloader sends them to the Graveyard, which is a different game mechanic.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
By the way...I think Max Reloader's effect is a cost. You have to be able to send two cards from your hand in order to be able to draw two cards. If you cannot send two cards from your hand, you don't get the effect of drawing two cards.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I wouldn't say it had to be based on that kind of text. We've had that formatting before without it being a cost. Also, it's a Mandatory Trigger Effect. I would find it odd to HAVE to pay the cost for something because a trigger said so. You would usually get the option to pay the cost or not.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
HorusMaster said:
By the way...I think Max Reloader's effect is a cost. You have to be able to send two cards from your hand in order to be able to draw two cards. If you cannot send two cards from your hand, you don't get the effect of drawing two cards.
Click to expand...
It's not a cost. It's a case of the game mechanic "you can't activate an effect if it'll do nothing". Here, the effect is "send 2 & draw 2" (all or nothing). If you don't have 2 cards, the effect will still activate (because it's a mandatory trigger - it MUST activate), but it disappears (i.e. does nothing, "fizzles", whatever you call it) because you can't do it.

It's like saying the cost for Monster Reborn is to have a Special Summonable monster in either Graveyard, or the cost for Fissure is for a face-up monster to be on your opponent's side of the field. That's just silly talk.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Gentlemen, I offer Gravekeeper's Watcher. Worded similarly, yet, not manditory or at least we've never played it like that. Rather it is played as an optional Trigger Effect. Moreover, sending is a cost for that. It follows the "When X do Y in order to get Z result" formula.

Gravekeeper's Watcher
Effect Monster (Spellcaster / DARK / 4 Stars / ATK 1000 / DEF 1000)
When your opponent activates a card that includes an effect whereby your opponent discards from his/her hand, send this card from your hand to the Graveyard to negate the activation and the effect of the card and destroy it.


just food for thought....
In the forum, where it was discussed at soem length, it was proferd that it was effect, not cost and nobody "corrected" it, so we will go with that......for now (Bwah! Ha! Ha!!)

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/community/forums/thread/896005.aspx
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
You have to be a little more patient then that. This time of day most of our members are either at work or in school. I only just saw your post just now, and I'm online more then anyone. Questions don't always get answered in less then an hour. Sometimes they get answered later in the day.
Click to expand...



sorry for that, i needed to know a fast anwser.

i appolgise








Digital Jedi said:
It's true that Mad Reloder's effect is not a cost, but Dark World monsters have to be discarded to the Graveyard to get their effect. Mad Reloader sends them to the Graveyard, which is a different game mechanic.
Click to expand...


you say that darkworld monsters needed to be discarded, so for example raigeki break says, discard 1 card from your hand to destroy 1 card on the field.

but if i discard a darkworld monster, the monster don't get its effect.

so i am confussed, when goes the effect and when not???


i know a little of mechanics but this one i cant understand.


dark world lighning says "select 1 card from you hand" it don't say discard and it don't say send. and the DW monster gets it's effect

gracefull charity says "discard any 2 cards" and yes the DW monster gets it's effect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Matrix...you may want to read the complete text of Dark World Lightning:

Dark World Lightning
Select 1 face-down card on the field and destroy it, and after that, select 1 card from your hand and discard it.

This is why the Dark World monsters get their effect when you activate Dark World Lightning. If a dark world monster is discarded as required for a cost effect like Rageki Break or others that require a cost (do x to get y), then the monster's effect is not activated.

Cards like Spirit Reaper attacking an opponent and inflicting LP damage, Thesalos when tribute summoned and other that cause a player to discard, will activate the Dark World monsters effect if discarded by a card effect and not a cost requirement.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
matrix_sentinal said:
sorry for that, i needed to know a fast anwser.

i appolgise
Click to expand...

Not a problem. We're just a slightly smaller forum is all.


you say that darkworld monsters needed to be discarded, so for example raigeki break says, discard 1 card from your hand to destroy 1 card on the field.

but if i discard a darkworld monster, the monster don't get its effect.

so i am confussed, when goes the effect and when not???


i know a little of mechanics but this one i cant understand.


dark world lighning says "select 1 card from you hand" it don't say discard and it don't say send. and the DW monster gets it's effect

gracefull charity says "discard any 2 cards" and yes the DW monster gets it's effect.
Click to expand...

There are two questions you should ask when checking to see if a Dark Worlder will activate. First, is the effect specifically saying "discard" in its text? The second, is the discard a cost?

Dark Worlders have to be discarded by an effect. So that's two requirements they have to meet. They have to be specifically "discarded", meaning they have to be sent using that game mechinic. The can't be "sent", "destroyed" or "placed" or any other variation of the word, because "discard' is a specific game term. And in addition, the discard cannot be part of a cost.

So, Raigeki Break won't work because the discard in this effect is a cost. It's a stand-alone sentance at the beginning of the text.
{"Discard 1 card from your hand. "}

But Dark World Lighntning will work becuase the discard is not a cost, it's part of the effect:
{"...select 1 card from your hand and discard it."}

Mad Reloader's effect is not a cost, but it doesn't "discard" anything. It "sends" cards. So it won't work with Dark Worlders:
{"...send 2 cards from your hand to the Graveyard..."}
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
matrix_sentinal said:
mad reloader says:

When this card is destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard, send 2 cards from your hand to the Graveyard to draw 2 cards.

so if a discard two dark world monsters (example goldd), can i special summon them on my side of the field yes or no??

i say yes becase it is not a cost, am i right about this or not


plaese help


tnk you
Click to expand...
As stated Dark Worlds have to be discarded not sent.
This card is invaluable with Ojamagic, which activates when sent to graveyard, netting you Ojama Black, Ojama Green and Ojama Yellow.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
In the OCG, it's an effect, not a cost.

It's probably because Gravekeeper's Watcher has a slightly different Japanese wording. More or less, it reads: "This effect can only be activated «yadda yadda yadda». Send this card from your hand to the Graveyard; negate the activation and effect of the card and destroy it."

Mad Reloader keeps the same phrasing between the OCG and TCG.

Besides, with Gravekeeper's Watcher, it wouldn't make much sense for it to be an effect. If so, you would only confirm to your opponent that you have it in your hand when the effect resolves.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You sure 'bout that? Looking at the Netrep entry for Gravekeeper's Watcher, there's nothing to suggest it one way or another (except the wording of some of the rulings that indicate it's optional). I'm agreeing with Oceanus for now.

# You can activate the effect of "Gravekeeper's Watcher" to negate "Graceful Charity".

# When "Morphing Jar" is Flip Summoned, you may chain the effect of "Gravekeeper's Watcher", negating the Flip Effect of "Morphing Jar" and destroying it.
Click to expand...
"May", "can" both imply optional. And I certainly thought that cards in the hand were never mandatory, so I'm sticking with that for now.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Maruno said:
You sure 'bout that? Looking at the Netrep entry for Gravekeeper's Watcher, there's nothing to suggest it one way or another (except the wording of some of the rulings that indicate it's optional). I'm agreeing with Oceanus for now.


"May", "can" both imply optional. And I certainly thought that cards in the hand were never mandatory, so I'm sticking with that for now.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but "may" and "can" are all over the place in rulings. Where you need to see "can" is in the card text in order for it to be optional. Gravekeeper's Watcher's text is very clear:
When your opponent activates a card that includes an effect whereby your opponent discards from his/her hand, send this card from your hand to the Graveyard to negate the activation and the effect of the card and destroy it.​
There's no option here, which is where the hallmark for an Optional Effect would be. The "you can" in the rulings is in the context of permission. In other words, "you can" activate this card against this card. It's no more indicative of it being an Optional Effect then if it said "you can" use this card to give your opponent a paper cut.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
There was no "can" in older versions of card texts like "By Tributing this card, destroy 1 monster on the field" (obviously Exiled Force there as the example). When was the last time Gravekeeper's Watcher was updated?

And if we assume no cards in the hand have mandatory effects, then they don't need a "can", because they're optional by definition.

The main problem with it being mandatory is that your opponent could forever call you up on not playing your Gravekeeper's Watcher when you had to, even if you don't have one (thus getting a free look at your hand every play). It just makes more sense for it to be optional (and yes, I know that's not a valid argument). Have you emailed the Judges' List yet about it?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Maruno said:
There was no "can" in older versions of card texts like "By Tributing this card, destroy 1 monster on the field" (obviously Exiled Force there as the example). When was the last time Gravekeeper's Watcher was updated?

And if we assume no cards in the hand have mandatory effects, then they don't need a "can", because they're optional by definition.

The main problem with it being mandatory is that your opponent could forever call you up on not playing your Gravekeeper's Watcher when you had to, even if you don't have one (thus getting a free look at your hand every play). It just makes more sense for it to be optional (and yes, I know that's not a valid argument). Have you emailed the Judges' List yet about it?
Click to expand...
By the definition your using, all cards are optional effects. The option to activate a card is not what makes it an Optional or Mandatory Trigger. It's what happens after the effect triggers that makes it so. You have the choice whether you want to activate Gravekeepr's Watcher, in the same way you have the choice to activate a face-down Trap Card. It's whether or not the effect can optionally resolve that makes it mandatory or optional.

They still make Boo Berry Crunch!?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
You have the choice whether you want to activate Gravekeepr's Watcher, in the same way you have the choice to activate a face-down Trap Card. It's whether or not the effect can optionally resolve that makes it mandatory or optional.
Click to expand...

Ah, good, you join the dark side with saying GW is Optional. But I don't get the second part you say... "Optional" v. "Manditory" usually refer to Activation. I mean, yes, they could trigger, but the activation is usually what is optional or not.

Digital Jedi said:
They still make Boo Berry Crunch!?
Click to expand...
Well, I don't know about the crunch part, but yes, in some states General Mills still sells the Monster cerals...even when it isn't Halloween. I'm snacking on some now.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top