Maruading Captain vs Bottomless Trap Hole

[PerfectZelgadis]

This came up in a recent duel I had.

Player A has a face down bottomless trap hole
Player B summons Maruading Captain and by effect summons Berserk Gorilla
Player A triggers Bottomless

Are both monsters removed?

Thanks for the help.

 

[densetsu_x]

"Maurading Captain" doesn't have an ATK of 1500 or higher so no. But let's assume due to effects on the field he does. You can chain "Bottomless Trap Hole" to the effect of special summoning another monter to remove MC from play, or you can wait, and activate it after the other monster hits the field, removing that from play. You won't get both though.

 

[Dillie-O]

Only Berserk Gorilla would be destroyed, since Maurading Captain has successfully been normal summoned and Bottomless Trap Hole wasn't activated in response to him, it was activated. Bottomless Trap Hole will grab multiple monsters if they were summoned simultaneously, such as in the event of Cyber Jar or Return from the Different Dimension.

I'm not 100% sure on this one, so please, one of you veterans please accept or refute this one 8^D

EDIT: Looks like Densetu_x read my mind 8^D

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Only Berserk Gorilla would be destroyed, since Maurading Captain has successfully been normal summoned and Bottomless Trap Hole wasn't activated in response to him, it was activated. Bottomless Trap Hole will grab multiple monsters if they were summoned simultaneously, such as in the event of Cyber Jar or Return from the Different Dimension.

EDIT: Looks like Densetu_x read my mind 8^D

Your reasoning is flawed: Bottomless Trap Hole can affect monsters summoned at different times. It's because of the chain structure that Bottomless trap hole can't get both Marauding captain and the monster summoned by it.

E.G.

Player A summons Berserk Gorilla)
Player A Passes Priority
Player B Responds with Bottomless Trap Hole
Player A Chains Call of the Haunted Targetting Jinzo in an attempt to negate the resolution of Bottomless Trap Hole
Player B Chains Skill Drain To prevent Jinzo's effect

Skill Drain

Resolve in reverse Order:
Skill Drain Negates Effects
Jinzo is summoned by Call of the Haunted, but it's effect is negated.
Bottomless Trap Hole resolves: Destroying both Jinzo and Berserk Gorrila


But in the Marauding captain example, Bottomless Trap Hole resolves before another monster is summoned.

 

[novastar]

Your reasoning is flawed: Bottomless Trap Hole can affect monsters summoned at different times. It's because of the chain structure that Bottomless trap hole can't get both Marauding captain and the monster summoned by it.

E.G.

Player A summons Berserk Gorilla)
Player A Passes Priority
Player B Responds with Bottomless Trap Hole
Player A Chains Call of the Haunted Targetting Jinzo in an attempt to negate the resolution of Bottomless Trap Hole
Player B Chains Skill Drain To prevent Jinzo's effect

Skill Drain

Resolve in reverse Order:
Skill Drain Negates Effects
Jinzo is summoned by Call of the Haunted, but it's effect is negated.
Bottomless Trap Hole resolves: Destroying both Jinzo and Berserk Gorrila


But in the Marauding captain example, Bottomless Trap Hole resolves before another monster is summoned.

This doesn't seem correct.

The reason you can destroy multiple monsters in the Cyber Jar scenario is because they are all summoned at the same time and you are responding to a single summon event with multiple monsters.

In the chain you are refering to the response timing is not correct for Jinzo to be destroyed. You cannot respond to 2 different summon events with 1 Bottomless Trap Hole.

The timing this game is 1 Event -> 1 Response. In this case, you cannot respond to Jinzo's summon, because it is mid-chain.

EDIT: I found a ruling to somewhat prove it...

If the opponent activates "Monster Reborn" and then chains "Call of the Haunted" (so that 2 monsters are Summoned in the same chain), and then you activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" after that chain resolves only the monster Summoned by chain link 1 ("Monster Reborn") is removed from play.

You can only respond to 1 summon event at a time.

 

[woltarr]

lets say that we also have "gaia power" on the field to boost MC to 1700

do actually beliebe that BYH would them RFG both monsters?
woltarr

 

[densetsu_x]

Actually, yes it is. His example was a question posted on the mailing list (not with the same monsters but the same scenario). "Bottomless Trap Hole" took out both in that case according to Curtis.

 

[novastar]

Actually, yes it is. His example was a question posted on the mailing list (not with the same monsters but the same scenario). "Bottomless Trap Hole" took out both in that case according to Curtis.

Well then its wrong... plain and simple.

EDIT: here it is: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3421

That logic conflicts with the logic from the FAQ ruling. So one is right and one is wrong, and my guess tells me Curtis is wrong, since the FAQ rulings are verified by Konami.

There is no point of response for a summon mid-chain, which the FAQ ruling illustrates.

Maybe there is something here im not seeing.

 

[densetsu_x]

Edit: Ok you found the link.

Actually the scenario is different that to what is posted on the FAQ.

 

[novastar]

Edit: Ok you found the link.

Actually the scenario is different that to what is posted on the FAQ.

It is different, but there is a BIG problem with this.

Firstly, is BTH supposed to be non-targeted?

Second, this is 2 different summon events, and you generally cannot respond to two different events, that occur at different times, with 1 effect.

The only way i see this working, is if a Special Summon within a summon response chain becomes part of the same event...which really seems off the wall to me.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Well then its wrong... plain and simple.

Your example was completely different:

Your example Bottomlees Trap Hole was activated in response to Monster Reborn resolving, anything that happened before that happened too long ago for Bottomless Trap Hole to be activated. Replace Monster Reborn with a non summoning card and Bottomless Trap Hole couldn't be activated at all.

My example is completely correct because Bottomless Trap Hole was activated in response to Berserk Gorrila--it was activated properely. The nature of it being non-targetting allows it to effect monsters that were not on the field when it was played.

The "Response" part only applies to Bottomless trap holes "activation." Not it's resolution

 

[densetsu_x]

It is non-targeting. The issue comes from the fact that you now have the timing correct for 2 summons in that example since the initial summoning doesn't have a speed... you can only respond to it. But since BTH can affect multiple creatures, you have the new one that was just summoned in the same timing as the original one that hit the field. Ugly I know, but that's what we have to deal with when we have things in the game that don't have "speeds" and just "response windows"

 

[novastar]

Bottomless Trap Hole is supposed to be used in response to the summon event that created the response, not one that occurs afterwards.

I'll live with the ruling...

 

[densetsu_x]

DMoC's effect is optional. If it were manditory (like Witch or Sangan), it simply would start a new chain. Yes the window to respond to that summon would have already passed. In this example though, when BTH resolves, it's right AT the correct timing to respond for that summon though.

 

[novastar]

DMoC's effect is optional. If it were manditory (like Witch or Sangan), it simply would start a new chain. Yes the window to respond to that summon would have already passed. In this example though, when BTH resolves, it's right AT the correct timing to respond for that summon though.

BTH is optional too d...

The logic is flawed... but its the way its ruled... i'll live with it

 

[novastar]

The "Response" part only applies to Bottomless trap holes "activation." Not it's resolution

That seems to be it...

This ruling illustrates it.

If the opponent Normal Summons "Dark Blade", then you activate "Bottomless Trap Hole", and the opponent chains "Ultimate Offering" and Tributes "Dark Blade" to Tribute Summon "Summoned Skull", the chain will resolve like this. "Dark Blade" is sent to the Graveyard and "Summoned Skull" is successfully Summoned, then "Bottomless Trap Hole" resolves and removes "Summoned Skull" from play.

Summoned Skull would have been summoned afterwards.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Marauding Captain's effect resolves when it Special Summons a monster of 4 stars or lower.

Bottomless Trap Hole won't remove Marauding Captain and the monster Special Summoned (this case, Berserk Gorilla) because if to the best knowledge isn't a "chain block" or whatever and some what in some manner no "summoned" at the same time.

You can:
Player A: activates Book of Life, selects Vampire Lord
Player B wishes not to respond
Player A: chains Call of the Haunted, selects Jinzo
Player B: chains Skill Drain
Player A/B wishes not to respond/chain
Resolve steps
Player B: now has an active SKill Drain
Player A: Special Summons Jinzo (effect then is negated)
Player A: Special Summon Vampire Lord (effect too is negated)
........


Thats when Bottomless Trap Hole can be activated in response to Vampire Lord, thus removing Both Vampire Lord and Jinzo in this "chain block"


To be honest... I don't have a clue what a "chain block" is lol, but i hope thats the idea. My example is correct right? Bottomless Trap Hole will remove Jinzo and Vampire Lord....


Can someone point me to a link where the term "chain block" can be explained?

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Can I ask you an example, Novastar? What if monster was Normal Summoned and Special Summoned in the same chain?

The question here is can Bottomless Trap Hole remove monsters with a valid 1500 ATK or higher when 2 or more different types of "summons" occur?

Edit: I'm changing this whole reply, for the example posted here was to similar to my recent post.

 

[novastar]

Can I ask you an example, Novastar? What if monster was Normal Summoned and Special Summoned in the same chain?

The question here is can Bottomless Trap Hole remove monsters with a valid 1500 ATK or higher when 2 or more different types of "summons" occur?

Edit: I'm changing this whole reply, for the example posted here was to similar to my recent post.

Yes, according to the rulings it would be possible.

For example:

[event] Gemini Elf is Normal Summoned

~Response Chain

[Chain Link 1] Bottomless Trap Hole
[Chain Link 2] Call of the Haunted (target -> Summoned Skull)
[Chain Link 3] Ultimate Offering (pay 500)

All 3 monsters would be destroyed and removed from play, because Bottomless Trap Hole is non-targeted.

Hope that helps

 

[YaDoc]

Maybe I should stay out of this one, but its too interesting to not put my two cents in. In the post that started all of this MC was summoned, correct? For MC to use his effect he has to be on the field, right? His normal summon successful and complet. Then his effect can be activated. I hope I'm on the right road so far. Otherwise, his effect could be activated from your hand, graveyard or somewhere in between and I know thats not so. One of BTH rulings says:

"This card can remove from play multiple monsters at once, if they are Summoned simultaneously. Since this card can affect multiple monsters, it does not target."

How can a special summons by his effect be simultaneous to his summon if his summon must be successful and complete before his effect can be activated?