Missing the timing?

F

Fury

New Member
I activate Monster Reborn to revive my BEWD.
I have Rapid-Fire Magician and my opp has BTH.
After Monster Reborn resolves RFM deals 400 damage to my opp.
Can my opp activate BTH?
Was the last thing to happen the summon or the damage?
The damage is a continuous effect so it is not really a 'thing' or 'fact' that's why I ask.
 
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I believe that since damage was inflicted (by the Continuous effect or Rapid-Fire Magician), your opponent would NOT be able to activate Bottomless Trap Hole, since the last thing to happen was NOT the Special Summon, i.e. exactly what you said.

I'm only 80% sure on that, though.
 
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Maruno said:
I believe that since damage was inflicted (by the Continuous effect or Rapid-Fire Magician), your opponent would NOT be able to activate Bottomless Trap Hole, since the last thing to happen was NOT the Special Summon, i.e. exactly what you said.

I'm only 80% sure on that, though.
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This is wrong. Continous Effects don't use the chain, thus the response window you would have in response to the Special Summon is still valid for Bottomless Trap Hole.


Also, cuzwbd, stop spamming please.
 
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Just to back Tkwiget up here, this is an anwer to a question of BLS-Envoy's Trigger, when up against LLAB (the whole post is here: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=6693#6693)

"Level Limit-Area B" has a Continuous Effect, not a Trigger Effect. When BLS-Envoy is Summoned successfully, "Level Limit - Area B" immediately shifts it into Defense Position. After doing this, the Turn Player retains priority and may now activate the effect of the BLS-Envoy, if so desired. Then the opponent is free to respond with card effects like "Bottomless Trap Hole," "Torrential Tribute," "Divine Wrath," etc.

In the above, change LLAB and its effect to RFM and his effect and ignore the BLS part, just look at the Bottomless part and you have:

"Rapid Fire Magician" has a Continuous Effect, not a Trigger Effect. When BEWD is Special Summoned Summoned successfully, "Rapid Fire Magician's" effect immediately does damage. After doing this, the opponent is free to respond with card effects like "Bottomless Trap Hole," "Torrential Tribute," "Divine Wrath," etc.
 
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skey23 said:
I'm not too sure I agree with what's been said. Changing battle position is different than inflicting LP damage.
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Changing battle position is a game event. It can trigger effects ( Dream Clown ) and it even sets the timing for activation of cards like Tragedy. Why do you think it should be treated differently, especially when it comes to timing issues ?

The quest.ion I'd like to see answered by the judge list or by upperdeck is whether, generally, events that result from the application of continuous effects are taken into account in terms of timing for optional triggers or card activation. The LLAB ruling ( and there's a similar ruling concerning LLAB and Mobius ) suggests they are not, but I have never seen any additional evidence that proves this right or wrong. Guess we'll have to keep extrapolating ...

Cheers

Carlos
 
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skey23 said:
I'm not too sure I agree with what's been said. Changing battle position is different than inflicting LP damage.

This would be a good question for entertainment@upperdeck.com and see what they say about it.
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Well, are you sure now?
UDE FAQ said:
"¢ When you have "Mysterious Puppeteer" face-up on the field, if you Summon a monster and you opponent activates "Trap Hole" your monster is destroyed and you still gain 500 Life Points, since the monster was Summoned and then destroyed.
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Glad I could help! ;)
 
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Ouch..I have been pwned....oooh...the pain......oooh....:haveaday


sheesh....it's getting so a guy can't even try to start up a little friendly debate...;)
 
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Who´s to say that a position change is not a game event just as Carlos stated, it´s a manual OR automatic action, therefore it has to be considered a game event.
 
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slither said:
Who´s to say that a position change is not a game event just as Carlos stated, it´s a manual OR automatic action, therefore it has to be considered a game event.
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It is a game event in which you can respond to. Other wise this card would make no sense and be rather pointless to have in the game.

Tragedy said:
You can only activate this card when a monster on your opponent's side of the field in face-up Attack Position is changed to face-up Defense Position. Destroy all Defense Position monsters on your opponent's side of the field.
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Also, as Andrew mentioned about Mysterious Puppeteer. This makes it a lot different if the card activates in response to a monster being summoned; which that ruling Derek gave explains.

Life Point increases and decreases I don't see as game events that a player can respond to. I can't remember or think of any card in the game that responds to Life Point increases and decreases.

However, my memory for cards in general in this game isn't very good anyway. XD
 
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Time is a dimension. Events that wait for a chain to resolve, once done resolving are moved "a little to the left" so that they have happened at the same time as the last event to resolve, the timing is correct to respond to either action (or both).
 
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densetsu_x said:
Mysterious Puppeteer uses the chain though so doesn't count.
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DOH! Oops. I guess you're right. Here I thought I pwned skey all good and proper. Oh well.

Tkwiget said:
It is a game event in which you can respond to. Other wise this card would make no sense and be rather pointless to have in the game.
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Well, it may be a response point for "Tradgedy", but it can't be a game event because then you wouldn't be able to respond the the Summon of a Level 4 monster while "Level Limit - Area B" is on the field, but we all know that's not true.

For this issue, I'm gonna stick with "continuous effects do not take the place of the response timing of a Summon."
 
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Um, say that to Divine Wrath.

You can activate the effect of "Divine Wrath" to a Flip Effect, Ignition Effect, Trigger Effect, or Multi-Trigger Effect. But not to a Continuous Effect. This is because Continuous Effects cannot be chained to.

And then to Fire Princess.

If you have a face-up "Fire Princess" and a Set "Poison of the Old Man" when your opponent activates "Dark Hole" you may chain "Poison of the Old Man" to increase your Life Points and the effect of "Fire Princess" will deal 500 damage to your opponent even though she is then destroyed by "Dark Hole", because the effect of "Fire Princess" is a Continuous Effect.

Continous Effects don't activate. They apply their effects when the event that's necessary for their effect to be applied happens. In Fire Princess' case it would be when you gain Life Points. If it activated, you wouldn't be applying 500 damage to the opponent after Poison of the Old Man resolves in a chain with Dark Hole.
 
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It's the closest thing to it. You gain Life Points, "Fire Princess's" effect deals damage. It might not use the chain, but it still "activates" after a sense. If something happens that applies to the effect, the effect does its thing. Activate, apply, whatever.

Still, it responds to the increase of your Life Points. Besides, none of this really means much to the discussion at hand.
 
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Actually it's pretty important to the discussion. We're talking about whether Life Point changes create response points. Continous Effects never have ever had activation points. If they did, then you wouldn't have effects like Fire Princess that would apply 500 damage to a player when a chain block is created that involves multiple life point gaining cards. If it did activate, then it would be considered a Trigger Effect that can be chained to that would automatically activate after the chain block resolves.

So Fire Princess never responds to Life Point increases because response points are activation points for the activation of other cards. At least that's how I see it.
 
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