My mind isn't working at work

[John Danker]

I'm at work and my mind is on it...but I came across a question that I need to answer for someone...I way too tunnel visioned at work <shrug> and not a good multi-tasker...

If a player uses premature / CoTH and special summons Spirit Reaper we know Spirit Reaper is destroyed, however....if Spirit Reaper's effect is a continuous effect (such as with Berserk Gorila) it doesn't use the chain...

So I'm assuming that a player couldn't at any time use Torrential Tribute in chain to the activation of Spirit Reaper's effect.....or is my tunnel vision at work clouding my thought process?

<Disclaimer>
Please forgive my lack of vision of great ones of the City should I have offended you with this question.....my brain is full of numbers and geometry and it NOT thinking Yugioh.

 

[masterwoo0]

When Premature Burial resolves and brings Spirit Reaper to the Field, Spirit Reaper is now face-up and being targeted. It would seem that at this point you would still be able to activate Torrential Tribute because Spirit Reaper must be summoned "first" before his continuous effect can activate. Targeting him from the Graveyard does not trigger his effect because a monster cannot be destoyed in the Graveyard, only on the field.

So, Spirit Reaper would be summoned by Premature Burial, Torrential Tribute activates, Spirit Reaper is destroyed by his effect due to Premature Burial, and Torrential Tribute either resolves without destroying a monster if Reaper was the only one, or it destroys the remaining monsters.

 

[anthonyj]

Certainly room for doubt but unfortunately I doubt we'll get any answers from the Officials on this. Just like our questions regarding Last Will.

 

[John Danker]

After Premature Burial resolves Spirit Reaper's effect activates immediately (before a response can be activated) and it's a continuous effect which cannot be chained to.

 

[anthonyj]

When Premature Burial resolves and brings Spirit Reaper to the Field, Spirit Reaper is now face-up and being targeted. It would seem that at this point you would still be able to activate Torrential Tribute because Spirit Reaper must be summoned "first" before his continuous effect can activate. Targeting him from the Graveyard does not trigger his effect because a monster cannot be destoyed in the Graveyard, only on the field.

So, Spirit Reaper would be summoned by Premature Burial, Torrential Tribute activates, Spirit Reaper is destroyed by his effect due to Premature Burial, and Torrential Tribute either resolves without destroying a monster if Reaper was the only one, or it destroys the remaining monsters.

Reaper will be destroyed before there is any way to create a new chain. So your timeline doesn't work. It could possibly be Spirit Reaper summoned, Reaper destroys itself, Torrential Tribute is activated and the chain could be built from there. But Reaper would definitely be off the field prior to the window that Torrential Tribute could be activated. The question still hinges on whether the destruction event eclipses timing for the summon that occurred.

 

[masterwoo0]

Okay, the targeting portion of Premature Burial cannot affect Reaper until he hits the field. Reaper cannot activate his self destruct effect until he hits the field.

Spirit Reaper must be targeted by an effect in order to activate his self destruct effect. Both the effect and the fact that Spirit Reaper must remain face-up on the field until resolution of the effect that targets him tells you that it isnt instantaneous, or else he would be instantly destroyed by Book of Moon or Compulsory Evacuation Device before they had a chance to flip him or return him to hand.

How can Spirit Reaper get targeted by Book of Moon, start the process of destroying himself, yet remain on the field when Book of Moon resolves if it doesnt use the chain (not saying it is a chainable event, but its not instantaneous either).

 

[anthonyj]

Spirit Reaper does not create a chain when it destroys itself. Spirit Reaper when targeted by Book of Moon waits for the effect to resolve. Once Book of Moon has resolved Spirit Reaper is face-down so he doesn't trigger his destruction.

Example #1. I activate Pot of Greed, then chain with Call of the Haunted targeting Spirit Reaper, when Call resolves Spirit Reaper will immediately destroy itself before the effect of Pot of Greed resolves and I draw 2 cards.

Example #2. I activate Premature Burial and target Spirit Reaper when Premature resolves I want to use Mystik Wok on Spirit Reaper before he destroys himself. That wouldn't work because he will be gone before the opportunity to create a response chain has arrived.

 

[John Danker]

We know that continuous effects activate immediately after the current card effect resolves and can even activate (insert themselves) mid-chain (between links of a chain but not in the middle of a card resolution) There is no "room" to insert a card effect to be activated once Spirit Reaper's continuous effect is triggered.

 

[Tkwiget]

Spirit Reaper can't destroy himself until the card effect that's targetting him has resolved. A Book of Moon targetting a Spirit Reaper that's resolving will result in a face down Spirit Reaper.

Rapid-Fire Magician and Skilled Dark Magician don't have their continuous effects of dealing damage or gaining a spell counter before a spell card resolves, but after. They're continuous effects and only activate after the spell card has resolved. Spirit Reaper is no different. It will only self-destruct when the card that's targetting it resolves and Spirit Reaper happens to be face up during resolution.

<packs his stuff up and goes home to continue the discussion!!!>

 

[masterwoo0]

Spirit Reaper does not create a chain when it destroys itself. Spirit Reaper when targeted by Book of Moon waits for the effect to resolve. Once Book of Moon has resolved Spirit Reaper is face-down so he doesn't trigger his destruction.

Example #1. I activate Pot of Greed, then chain with Call of the Haunted targeting Spirit Reaper, when Call resolves Spirit Reaper will immediately destroy itself before the effect of Pot of Greed resolves and I draw 2 cards.

Example #2. I activate Premature Burial and target Spirit Reaper when Premature resolves I want to use Mystik Wok on Spirit Reaper before he destroys himself. That wouldn't work because he will be gone before the opportunity to create a response chain has arrived.

First example wouldnt allow you to activate Torrential Tribute because the last thing to happen is Pot of Greed, so Spirit Reaper will be destroyed before Pot of Greed can resolve.

Second example doesnt allow you to resolve Mystik Wok because Mystik Wok must resolve and Spirit Reaper is being targeted already by Premature Burial.

Torrential Tribute doesnt need to resolve to activate if the last thing to happen is a summon.

 

[anthonyj]

First example wouldnt allow you to activate Torrential Tribute because the last thing to happen is Pot of Greed, so Spirit Reaper will be destroyed before Pot of Greed can resolve.

Which is analogous to John's question of whether Torrential would miss it's timing. I was actually pointing out that Spirit Reaper would destroy itself in between resolving chain links.

Second example doesnt allow you to resolve Mystik Wok because Mystik Wok must resolve and Spirit Reaper is being targeted already by Premature Burial.

Actually Mystik Wok would send Spirit Reaper to the grave as cost for it's activation. You can certainly use Spirit Reaper with Mystik Wok but you can't in the given scenario because Spirit Reaper destroyed itself prior to the window to Activate Mystik Wok.

Torrential Tribute doesnt need to resolve to activate if the last thing to happen is a summon.

And that is the essence of what we are talking about. We are discussing that Torrential Tribute may or may not be allowed to activate because although Spirit Reaper was successfully summoned to the field he immediately destroys himself and thus the last event when a response window is open to create a chain is in fact Spirit Reaper being destroyed and going to the graveyard, not the summon that you would typically be responding to with Torrential Tribute.

 

[masterwoo0]

Let me try this... Premature Burial has two targeting effects, one that selects a monster in the Graveyard, and one that equips itself to the selected monster.

The first one cannot affect him because he is already in the Graveyard, and the resolution has already occured before he hits the Field.

The second one targets him so that it can equip itself to Reaper. Again, The resolution of Premature Burial equipping itself has not happened yet, so why shouldnt Spirit Reaper be waiting for that to happen?

Gearfried the Iron Knight will not destroy Premature Burial until it tries to equip itself to him, so wouldnt that not indicate that if he has a continuous effect as well, that is "similar" to Reaper, that it must wait for the equip part to actually trigger it?

[Re: Spirit Reaper] If "Spirit Reaper" is Special Summoned with "Premature Burial" or "Call of the Haunted", "Spirit Reaper" is destroyed after it is Special Summoned because it is targeted by an effect.

 

[Dillie-O]

Here's another example to piggy back on Anthonyj's statement:

Giant Kozaky is summoned to the field while there is no Kozaky present. He is immediately destroyed and sent to the graveyard. At that point, his "tactical nuke" effect activates to inflict damage to the controller of Giant Kozaky at the point he was destroyed. This event is chainable, would it be legal to chain Torrential Tribute to this? I'd say no, because the last event to happen was Giant Kozaky being destroyed and sent to the graveyard.

What WOULD be interesting is the potential to chain Michizure to the destruction of Spirit Reaper, because the last thing is that he's destroyed and sent to the graveyard 8^D

 

[masterwoo0]

Here's another example to piggy back on Anthonyj's statement:

Giant Kozaky is summoned to the field while there is no Kozaky present. He is immediately destroyed and sent to the graveyard. At that point, his "tactical nuke" effect activates to inflict damage to the controller of Giant Kozaky at the point he was destroyed. This event is chainable, would it be legal to chain Torrential Tribute to this? I'd say no, because the last event to happen was Giant Kozaky being destroyed and sent to the graveyard.

What WOULD be interesting is the potential to chain Michizure to the destruction of Spirit Reaper, because the last thing is that he's destroyed and sent to the graveyard 8^D

Giant Kozaky's effect is a condition for him being placed on the field.

 

[ancient_duelist]

What WOULD be interesting is the potential to chain Michizure to the destruction of Spirit Reaper, because the last thing is that he's destroyed and sent to the graveyard 8^D

Good point. It appears the timing would be correct for Michizure, and if that is true the timing must be wrong for Torrential Tribute.

 

[Dillie-O]

Good call woo....bad example, but maybe overall right outcome? 8^D

 

[slither]

Im in a bit of a hurry <so don't throw stones at me if this doesn't make any sense **picks up a shield**>

Reaper does hit the field, that I think noone is against it. It immediately destroys himself, that we all agree on too (or so I hope). But in a case <I know it isn't something THAT good to compare to it but>, if Exiled Force is summoned and his effect is used, Trap Hole cannot be activated, even though there was existance of a Normal Summon... why would something like Reaper immediately getting destroyed "which by Konami's standards is a continous effect and does not use the chain", would trigger TT.

 

[Tkwiget]

Spirit Reaper does not create a chain when it destroys itself. Spirit Reaper when targeted by Book of Moon waits for the effect to resolve. Once Book of Moon has resolved Spirit Reaper is face-down so he doesn't trigger his destruction.

Example #1. I activate Pot of Greed, then chain with Call of the Haunted targeting Spirit Reaper, when Call resolves Spirit Reaper will immediately destroy itself before the effect of Pot of Greed resolves and I draw 2 cards.

Example #2. I activate Premature Burial and target Spirit Reaper when Premature resolves I want to use Mystik Wok on Spirit Reaper before he destroys himself. That wouldn't work because he will be gone before the opportunity to create a response chain has arrived.

Valid first scenario for what you were trying to explain.

Second example doesn't work. Mystik Wok can't chain to Spirit Reaper's continuous monster effect. You can't chain to continuous monster effects. You never have. So Mystik Wok doesn't work here.

Exiled Force v.s. Trap Hole is easy to explain really. Trap Hole targets and Torrential Tribute doesn't.

You're still allowed to chain Torrential Tribute to the Turn Player activating Exiled Force's Ignition Effect for their priority. The reason for this is because Exiled Force's effect you can chain to unlike Spirit Reaper's. Thus, you Normal Summon your Exiled Force and use your priority to activate his Ignition Effect, I can chain my Torrential Tribute to his effect that's activated in response to the summoning.

The fact that Exiled Force is Ignition and Spirit Reaper is Continuous changes the scenario a little bit IMO.

 

[anthonyj]

Let me try this... Premature Burial has two targeting effects, one that selects a monster in the Graveyard, and one that equips itself to the selected monster.

The first one cannot affect him because he is already in the Graveyard, and the resolution has already occured before he hits the Field.

These are not two seperate effects resolving.

The second one targets him so that it can equip itself to Reaper. Again, The resolution of Premature Burial equipping itself has not happened yet, so why shouldnt Spirit Reaper be waiting for that to happen?

An equip card targets because it is an equip card. There is no seperate targeting effect to resolve beyond the card effect resolving in the first place.

Gearfried the Iron Knight will not destroy Premature Burial until it tries to equip itself to him, so wouldnt that not indicate that if he has a continuous effect as well, that is "similar" to Reaper, that it must wait for the equip part to actually trigger it?

Good question except that Gearfried is a Trigger effect not a Continuous effect.

Giant Kozaky's effect is a condition for him being placed on the field.

No actually Giant Kozaky's Continuous effect is just like Spirit Reaper. His damage effect is Trigger and will create a chain but nothing in Giant Kozaky's text is a condition.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

"¢ Use the current ATK at time of Summoning to determine if you can activate "Bottomless Trap Hole". So if the opponent Tribute Summons "Enraged Muka Muka" with 1 card in their hand, you can activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" (since its ATK is 1600).

But the last thing to happen was Muka Muka increasing its ATK?

EDIT: Or if you go back to the Level Limit - Area B example, the timing would be correct for both Torrential Tribute AND Tragedy.

That is to say the continuous effect is not "after" in game-play time, rather it happens at the very end of the last real effect to resolve and becomes time-wise part of that last event.

Remember "Time" is a dimension, and its easy to move things along time jsut as easily as you can move something right or left.

 

[anthonyj]

Second example doesn't work. Mystik Wok can't chain to Spirit Reaper's continuous monster effect. You can't chain to continuous monster effects. You never have. So Mystik Wok doesn't work here.

Well since example #2 was showing that Spirit Reaper would be gone before a chain could be started I actually said that it wouldn't work. See it was just proving that Spirit Reaper would not be on the field to be the cost of Mystik Wok.