My mind isn't working at work

[John Danker]

I'm at work and my mind is on it...but I came across a question that I need to answer for someone...I way too tunnel visioned at work <shrug> and not a good multi-tasker...

If a player uses premature / CoTH and special summons Spirit Reaper we know Spirit Reaper is destroyed, however....if Spirit Reaper's effect is a continuous effect (such as with Berserk Gorila) it doesn't use the chain...

So I'm assuming that a player couldn't at any time use Torrential Tribute in chain to the activation of Spirit Reaper's effect.....or is my tunnel vision at work clouding my thought process?

<Disclaimer>
Please forgive my lack of vision of great ones of the City should I have offended you with this question.....my brain is full of numbers and geometry and it NOT thinking Yugioh.

 

[anthonyj]

But the last thing to happen was Muka Muka increasing its ATK?

EDIT: Or if you go back to the Level Limit - Area B example, the timing would be correct for both Torrential Tribute AND Tragedy.

That is to say the continuous effect is not "after" in game-play time, rather it happens at the very end of the last real effect to resolve and becomes time-wise part of that last event.

Remember "Time" is a dimension, and its easy to move things along time jsut as easily as you can move something right or left.

Yet we know that both effects of Goldd are occurring in the same chain link and the second effect happens after the first thus insulating him from Torrential Tribute timing.

You could very well be correct that the timing is still correct for both. We can't seem to get any answers from UDE/Konami about some of these "last event" with continuous effect scenarios.

 

[slither]

Ok, im with a bit more time on my hands =P...

Anyways, I came out of context with my previous scenario, so I thought it over slowly and throughly, from what I can grasp Torrential Tribute only looks for a "succesful summon" regardless of what happens to the summoned monster afterwards...

The fact of the matter is that Reaper because it did in fact hit the field (otherwise impossible to be destroyed by it's own effect), and by that it was still considered a succesful special summon, therefore able to be identified by Torrential Tribute.

<this again my opinion>

 

[anthonyj]

Ok, im with a bit more time on my hands =P...

Anyways, I came out of context with my previous scenario, so I thought it over slowly and throughly, from what I can grasp Torrential Tribute only looks for a "succesful summon" regardless of what happens to the summoned monster afterwards...

The fact of the matter is that Reaper because it did in fact hit the field (otherwise impossible to be destroyed by it's own effect), and by that it was still considered a succesful special summon, therefore able to be identified by Torrential Tribute.

<this again my opinion>

You are absolutely correct Reaper is successfully summoned and at that point the timing is correct for Torrential Tribute. The only question is that immediately after that successful summon he will blow himself up and go back to the grave, this is the part in question regarding whether this self destruction counts as a successive event which would change the timing for a response chain or a parallel event which only expands the available options for what is legal in the response chain.

Thus we all know the response chain timing is correct for Michizure, what we are somewhat unsure of is whether the timing would still be correct for Torrential Tribute or not. Thus it could be proper timing for both or only proper timing for Michizure. That is the essence of the question.

 

[John Danker]

Perhaps we're all overlooking something here....now it's late and I've got a thumper of a headache so my mind isn't working much better than it was this afternoon <laffin> ...however...

While a continuous effect doesn't begin a chain....it certainly resolves does it not?

Spirit Reaper has a continuous effect. Once Premature Burial resolves that effect triggers, nothing can be chained to it and so it resolves and sends Spirit Reaper to the graveyard. The last thing to happen was the resolution of Spirit Reaper's effect no? <rubbing my neck> ....I'm going to bed, hopefully I'll be thinking more clearly in the morning.

 

[anthonyj]

Well that is a good question. Does a continuous effect actually "resolve" or merely occur. We have a ruling that Level Limit - Area B's effect does not interrupt timing for Mobius. But what it does do is create a parallel event so timing becomes broader (Tragedy as well as Torrential Tribute). But additional things happen with Spirit Reaper, after he is destroyed by his Continuous Effect he is sent to the graveyard which is a by-product of but not truly a "Continuous Effect" event in and of itself. That is part of the reason I'm leaning towards Timing being lost for Torrential here.

 

[skey23]

Good question except that Gearfried is a Trigger effect not a Continuous effect.

Not according to the last TEST that I took! That was one of the few I did get wrong...lol.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Not according to the last TEST that I took! That was one of the few I did get wrong...lol.

Are you saying the "correct" answer on the TEST indicated that Gearfried the Iron Knight has a Continuous Effect??? How on earth did whoever (wink, wink) wrote that test reconcile that with this ruling:

[Re: Butterfly Dagger - Elma] When "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is destroyed by "Gearfried the Iron Knight"'s effect, you can chain to this effect with "Really Eternal Rest" and destroy "Gearfried the Iron Knight", and "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" will be destroyed because "Gearfried the Iron Knight" was destroyed, so "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" cannot return to the owner's hand.

Sounds like a Trigger Effect to me.

Also sounds like whoever (wink, wink) wrote that test could really use a cross-referenced FAQ like the one at Netrepâ„¢!

 

[Digital Jedi]

Since when do you chain Michizure to a destruction effect? You activate Michizure in response to a resolving effect where the last thing to happen is a monster going to the Graveyard. Thetiming in John's example is for Michizure.

And with that said, the timing for Torrential Tribute must be passed.

 

[masterwoo0]

Spirit Reaper is not like a Dark World Monster. His effect cannot even begin to come into play until he is successfully summoned. If that were the case, once he was summoned by the effect of Book of Life, he would then be destroyed by the targeting portion because Book of Life is still on the field until Spirit Reaper is summoned and a monster removed from play.

His effect is not instantaneous with summoning.

The reason I said Premature Burial is two effects is because it targets at activation, which can be chained to with Disappear, Magic Drain, Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell, Solemn Judgment, Magic Jammer, etc...

And, once the effect resolves, you can activate effects like Eternal Rest and Really Eternal Rest.

So that shows that there are two things going on with one card.

If I used a regular monster like Skull Servant and Premature Burial, I could either destroy Premature Burial before it resolves, or wait until it summons Skull Servant and use Torrential Tribute or Really Eternal Rest. I cant use Really Eternal Rest until the effect of Premature Burial completely summons the monster to the field and equips, which is a separate action from the targeting at activation.

Spirit Reaper's effect does not resolve until an effect resolves that targets him while he is still face-up on the field. Premature Burial's first part of the effect summons him after any chain has resolved post activation. The second part equips and begins targeting the monster, and that is where Spirit Reaper gets destroyed.

This is why I say that gearfried does not destroy Premature Burial with his continuous effect until Premature Burial tries to equip to him after it summons him to the field. His effect is continuous also, but it doesnt kick in until after the summon. So, since both monsters would be destroyed by the effect that summons them, the same thing would apply to gearfried as well as Spirit Reaper in regards to Torrential Tribute.

However, I still believe a monster was summoned and that Torrential Tribute does not lose the timing because both monsters effects do not "resolve" until after they are summoned and not "because" they are summoned, like Dark Magician of Chaos or Sacred Crane.

 

[John Danker]

However, I still believe a monster was summoned and that Torrential Tribute does not lose the timing because both monsters effects do not "resolve" until after they are summoned and not "because" they are summoned, like Dark Magician of Chaos or Sacred Crane.

I thought this was explained earlier, Spirit Reaper's continuous effect happens immediatly after Premature Burial resolves, there is no "time" to activate Torrential Tribute, as a matter of fact non-turn player doesn't even have priority at this point to activate Torrential Tribute because a monster has just been summoned and priority belongs to the turn player....not that it matters because Spirit Reapers continuous effect is in motion already and it's not a chainable effect.

 

[masterwoo0]

"¢ If "Spirit Reaper" is Special Summoned with "Premature Burial" or "Call of the Haunted", "Spirit Reaper" is destroyed after it is Special Summoned because it is targeted by an effect.

Why would it not say "immediately upon being summoned"? He's not destroyed immediately if he is targeted by Rush Recklessly.

 

[John Danker]

I don't know how to explain this anymore than I already have masterwoo0. A continuous effect comes into play as soon as it becomes active. Once Premature Burial resolves it's targeting Spirit Reaper, Spirit Reaper's continuous effect sees that (immediately upon Premature's resolution) and since Spirit Reaper's effect is continuous it can't be chained to....the effect resolves and Spirit Reaper is destroyed and sent to the graveyard.....but I've already been over all of that.

Sometimes I can't see the something either....I'm often great at details but can't see something very simple...the old, "Can't see the Forest through the trees" phrase often applies to me. Forgive me if I'm just repeating the same thing I've said before but with me sometimes it takes re-reading it serveal times before I put the emphasis on the right thing to make it come to light.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, I can see exactly what you are saying, and even as I put down "my" question, I have to say that the question almost answers itself, but that doesnt mean that it can't have a better explanation to the mechanic's.

Make no mistake that I understand. I just dont like the answer, which is why I personally question it.

On one hand a ruling says he is summoned. Torrential Tribute does not need to chain, but can chain to an effect if necessary. The whole thing DOES come down to whether Spirit Reaper's effect to blow itself up prevents the activation.

I guess the biggest reason I debate this is because this has farther implications than just "Torrential Tribute".

If I activate Call of the Haunted (or Premature Burial) and target Spirit Reaper, he will be destroyed by either before I can then activate Inferno Reckless Summon, correct?

 

[John Danker]

That's the way I see it yes.

 

[masterwoo0]

Okay, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

 

[novastar]

I thought this was explained earlier, Spirit Reaper's continuous effect happens immediatly after Premature Burial resolves, there is no "time" to activate Torrential Tribute, as a matter of fact non-turn player doesn't even have priority at this point to activate Torrential Tribute because a monster has just been summoned and priority belongs to the turn player....not that it matters because Spirit Reapers continuous effect is in motion already and it's not a chainable effect.

Well the goes back to the Level Limit/Final Attack Orders arguement.

Does the last event become SR's destruction? It's a tough call.

My guess is that it a wierd way the summon timing still exists and Torry T is legal here.

This is not a question of whether summon timing is ever present, it most definately is because the event still occured, it's more of whether SR's destruction overrides that event timing with a new one.

My guess is that it does not because the destruction is technically taking place on the other side of the chain now (the chain building side).

 

[anthonyj]

Sounds like somebody at UDE doesn't read rulings as well as they should.
We all got surprised by the Gearfried ruling with Eternal Rest but to still have it on a Judge's Test after this long incorrectly seems bizarre.

Book of Life has already resolved when Spirit Reaper comes to the field, there is no residual targeting to trigger self destruction, just like Monster Reborn.

Your question on Premature Burial makes it sound like there are two seperate effects triggering and resolving, which there aren't. An equip card is a targeting effect by definition. Spirit Reaper is summoned to the field by the effect resolving, he is now on the field equipped with Premature Burial (which because it is an equip card is targeting Spirit Reaper) thus self destruct happens immediately. There are no chains started, no secondary effects resolving. It is cut and dry why it is a targeting effect and why it works differently than Book of Life.

Inferno Reckless Summon targets thus it needs Spirit Reaper to remain on the field until it has resolved correct? So you could revive him with Book of Life and then respond with Inferno Reckless Summon, the other 2 Spirit Reapers would be special summoned and then the first one would blow himself up. But there would be no possible way to do that with Call or Premature.

 

[John Danker]

I've posted the question to the judge's list. It would be nice if they'd not only give the answer but the Reasoning behind it on this one....but one can only hope.

 

[masterwoo0]

Sounds like somebody at UDE doesn't read rulings as well as they should.
We all got surprised by the Gearfried ruling with Eternal Rest but to still have it on a Judge's Test after this long incorrectly seems bizarre.

I talked to Ian (this was one that I got correct) since he wrote many of the Test questions, and if I remember correctly, the test version I took was written last July 2005, and there was only one question that ended up getting tossed, which had to do with Ignition Effects (which I also got right).

Ian reiterated that Gearfried's effect is continuous and would destroy a equip card mid chain.

 

[anthonyj]

Then the Butterfly Dagger Elma/Eternal Rest ruling is incorrect, as there is no way for Gearfried's effect to be continuous and for there to be a window for Eternal Rest to be chained so that Elma would still be on the field to be destroyed by game mechanic.

Ian is wrong or the ruling is wrong. Even UDE can't BKSS that.