Negated Attacks, Parts 1 and 2

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carlossilva

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Part 1:

My opponent's Gemini Elf attacks my Opticlops.
I activate Draining Shield. My opponent does not chain.
I chain Magic Cylinder. No one chains anything else.

Magic Cylinder resolves, dealing damage to my opponent and negating his attack.

Now, does Draining Shield still resolve ? In other words, is Gemini Elf still a legal target for Draining Shield, even though its attack has already been negated by Magic Cylinder ?


Part 2:

My opponent's Gemini Elf attacks my Opticlops.
I activate the effect of a face-up Ultimate Offering, tributing the Opticlops for Dark Magician Girl.
My opponent chains Rush Recklessly. I chain Magic Cylinder.

Chain resolves, damage is dealt by Magic Cylinder, attack is negated, Gemini Elf's attack is raised, Dark Magician Girl is summoned.

Now what ? Does a replay still occur due to the monster change on my side ( meaning Gemini Elf could attack DMG ), or is it skipped since the first attack had already been negated by Magic Cylinder?

Thanks

Carlos
 
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Part 1: Yes, "Draining Shield" will still resolve properly and you will increase your LPs by the current ATK of the monster.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=1766#1766

Part 2: Yes, a Replay occurs; however, since the initial Attack was negated by "Magic Cylinder", the opponent cannot declare another attack with "Gemini Elf". Basically, the Replay changes nothing in the Game State at this point.



Hope this helps!
 
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HorusMaster said:
So, essentially Rush Recklessly is a wasted card after everything resolves?
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Yeah. If the guy was smart, he'd let the attack continue and wait to activate "Rush Recklessly" until the damage step when the opponent cannot activate "Magic Cylinder".
 
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carlossilva said:
Part 1:

My opponent's Gemini Elf attacks my Opticlops.
I activate Draining Shield. My opponent does not chain.
I chain Magic Cylinder. No one chains anything else.

Magic Cylinder resolves, dealing damage to my opponent and negating his attack.

Now, does Draining Shield still resolve ? In other words, is Gemini Elf still a legal target for Draining Shield, even though its attack has already been negated by Magic Cylinder ?


Part 2:

My opponent's Gemini Elf attacks my Opticlops.
I activate the effect of a face-up Ultimate Offering, tributing the Opticlops for Dark Magician Girl.
My opponent chains Rush Recklessly. I chain Magic Cylinder.

Chain resolves, damage is dealt by Magic Cylinder, attack is negated, Gemini Elf's attack is raised, Dark Magician Girl is summoned.

Now what ? Does a replay still occur due to the monster change on my side ( meaning Gemini Elf could attack DMG ), or is it skipped since the first attack had already been negated by Magic Cylinder?

Thanks

Carlos
Click to expand...

Part 1

The monster is no longer attacking because Magic Cylinder negated it. So Draining Shield will resolve but no life will be gained.

Edit: Seems I am wrong here. It looks like UDE rules says something different than what the card says.

Part 2

Ok as soon as you tribute for Dark Magician Girl Ultimate offering has resolve meaning your opponent can not chain to it. The rest of the chain was illegal.

Now if your opponent didn't let Ultimate Offering resolve and played Rush Recklessly and you chained Magic Cylinder. The following would happen

Magic Cylinder resolves negateing the attack.
Elf gets a 700 boost this turn off of RR.
You now tribute for DMG.
Elf can no longer attack because the first one was negated.
 
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blade146 said:
Part 1

The monster is no longer attacking because Magic Cylinder negated it. So Draining Shield will resolve but no life will be gained.

Edit: Seems I am wrong here. It looks like UDE rules says something different than what the card says.
Click to expand...
The timing for Draining Shield only needs to be correct at activation. Life Points will still be gained, and the attack will be negated again (although it already has been by Magic Cylinder, but we're still resolving a chain here).

blade146 said:
Part 2

Ok as soon as you tribute for Dark Magician Girl Ultimate offering has resolve meaning your opponent can not chain to it. The rest of the chain was illegal.

Now if your opponent didn't let Ultimate Offering resolve and played Rush Recklessly and you chained Magic Cylinder. The following would happen

Magic Cylinder resolves negateing the attack.
Elf gets a 700 boost this turn off of RR.
You now tribute for DMG.
Elf can no longer attack because the first one was negated.
Click to expand...
I believe that was the question, yes (chaining Rush Recklessly, etc. to the activation of Ultimate Offering).
 
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Maruno said:
The timing for Draining Shield only needs to be correct at activation. Life Points will still be gained, and the attack will be negated again (although it already has been by Magic Cylinder, but we're still resolving a chain here).
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I accept the ruling. I don't agree with it though because it goes against the card text.

Draining Sheild Text
Negate the attack of 1 of your opponent's monsters and increase your Life Points by the attacking monster's ATK.

Rulings
You activate "Draining Shield" when the monster controlled by your opponent declares an attack.
You gain Life Points for "Draining Shield" equal to the attacking monster's current ATK.

How can you gain life is the monster isn't attacking anymore?
 
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Thanks for your answers. So, even if the attack was previously negated, cards like Magic Cylinder or Draining Shield still resolve properly, including damage dealt/LP gained.

On the other hand, rulings under Magic Cylinder state that if the attacking monster leaves the turn player's side of the field or is flipped face-down, those cards´effect disappears ( target is no longer there for damage/LP gain to be calculated ).

Just to finish the subject, the only scenario missing is the one in which the attacking monster is changed to face-up defense position. If all it needs is to be attacking at activation, then I suppose it should still allow for Magic Cylinder to deal damage. Is this right ?

So, for example, I attack, my opponent activates Magic Cylinder, I chain Zero Gravity. Do I take damage from Magic Cylinder ?

Thanks

Carlos
 
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There is a differnce between turning it to face-up defense and flipping or removing it: while in the latter case the monster isn´t there to allow for calculation of damage, in the former case it is still there and its attack can still be determined.

The issue here is that it's no longer attacking since it is now in defense position. But it wasn't attacking either when the attack had previously been negated. So, should this be treated the same way (i.e. letting Magic Cylinder resolve properly )? Why/why not?

Thanks

Carlos
 
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Magic Cylinder resolves properly in this case because the only condition that has to be fulfilled at the time of the resolution of Magic Cylinder is the monster targeted being face-up on the field, so "MC can check" its attack and determine the damage. Why? Because the only thing that matters to MC (or cards that require sort of "when an attack is declared...") is the proper activation time. If the card is activated in answer to an attack (in other words in the "response window") and the monster doesn't leave the field or turn face-down before the resolution, the card will resolve properly.

I don't know if this answer explains much...
 
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Dr Sin said:
Magic Cylinder resolves properly in this case because the only condition that has to be fulfilled at the time of the resolution of Magic Cylinder is the monster targeted being face-up on the field, so "MC can check" its attack and determine the damage. Why? Because the only thing that matters to MC (or cards that require sort of "when an attack is declared...") is the proper activation time. If the card is activated in answer to an attack (in other words in the "response window") and the monster doesn't leave the field or turn face-down before the resolution, the card will resolve properly.

I don't know if this answer explains much...
Click to expand...

I disagree, it doesn't look for the monster being face-up on the field:

If an effect is chained to "Magic Cylinder" that destroys the attacking monster, or removes the attacking monster from the turn player's side of the field (including switching it to your control, or sending it to the owner's hand), no damage is dealt by the effect of "Magic Cylinder".

that bold clause explains clearly the monster is still face-up on the field and the damage is still not inflicted.
 
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You're completely right Slither. I forgot this possibility.
In my statement I should have said: Magic Cylinder resolves properly in this case because the only condition that has to be fulfilled at the time of the resolution of Magic Cylinder is the monster targeted being face-up on the field of the attacking player...
Thank you to mention it. So an example:
TP attacks with Dark Magician and pass. NTP responds with Magic Cylinder and then EC, targeting Dark Magician (with switch control effect). Chains resolves and in link 1 (Cylinder) DM would be at NTP side of the field and MC would resolve without inflicting damage.
Just one comment: I could not think of a situation that switch control of the monster in this case would not be a "uncoventional play" by NTP (not to say awful play).
 
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