null and void vs damage step

[DarkSpider]

greetings all,

"¢ You can activate "Null and Void" during the Damage Step, for example against the effects of "Airknight Parshath", "Sasuke Samurai #3" or "Bistro Butcher".

i don´t know why i can aktivate null and void. it is a normal trap card, and dosn´t modify the atk or def of an monster.  :?

Remember that Quick-Play Spell Cards & Trap Cards can be activated during the Battle Phase, but they cannot be activated during the Damage Step unless they specifically modify ATK or DEF ("Reinforcements", "Castle Walls", "Rush Recklessly", "Mirror Wall", "Limiter Removal", etc are OK and can be activated during the Damage Step. "Waboku", "Reverse Trap", "Mirror Force", "Magic Cylinder", "Imperial Order", etc. are not OK and cannot be activated during the Damage Step.)

Counter-Trap cards may be used during the Damage Step to negate an appropriate card. You can use "Magic Jammer" against "Rush Recklessly", for example, or "Seven Tools of the Bandit" against "Reinforcements".

can someone explain that?

Greetings from Germany
Spidy :evil2:

 

[soulwarrior]

Yeah... looks like this one is kinda easy..

It's an exception to the rule...

like some other cards...
Airknight's Trigger effect, which is resolved BEFORE the 'resolve effects' part of the Damage Step
Fiber Jar's Flip-Effect, which also affects Fiber Jar, if it was destroyed in Battle before (Flip Effects can't affect already destroyed monsters...)

.... and so on...

soul

 

[novastar]

Airknight's Trigger effect, which is resolved BEFORE the 'resolve effects' part of the Damage Step

This is infact perfectly fine, and is in direct accordance with other monsters with the same mechanic, such as Vampire Lord, Don Zaloog Kycoo, which all resolve during Damage Calculation as a result of inflicting Battle Damage.

Fiber Jar's Flip-Effect, which also affects Fiber Jar, if it was destroyed in Battle before (Flip Effects can't affect already destroyed monsters...)

This is highly debated, but from people i've talked to that have done trasnlation of JPN rules, the "FLIP:" effect rules in the english Rulebook are different. According to the JPN Handbook the rule only applies to targeted effects.

Interesting indeed....

 

[Raijinili]

According to the JPN Handbook the rule only applies to targeted effects.

I don't think so. What about Chaos Pod (Morphing Jar #2)?

 

[novastar]

I don't think so.  What about Chaos Pod (Morphing Jar #2)?

Actually, there are many examples.

Both [Cyber Jar] and [Morphing Jar #2], do infact, take part in their repective effects. [Morphing Jar #2] will clear itself off the field, prior to the Special Summoning, but if it is destroyed in battle, it cannot be sent to the Deck, so it goes to the Graveyard. [Cyber Jar] will also send itself to the Graveyard, as part of its effect.

Does [Fiber Jar] take part in its effect? Yes it does... it sends itself to the Graveyard, when it is destroyed in battle, and then the Graveyard (along with the other Zones) are put back in the Deck. Just as [Cyber Jar] and [Morphing Jar #2] do. These cards have extra functionality built in, that is not written in the text, we know this through rulings. Why would [Fiber Jar] be any different?

In the end, the [Fiber Jar] ruling is not a "Konami said so...".

Realistically, the "targeted effects" rule seems accurate.

 

[Dlanaan]

Fiber Jar is not in the Graveyard when its effect resolves. It is on the field with the 'destroyed' category. It would/should fall under the Morphing Jar #2 area.

 

[novastar]

Fiber Jar is not in the Graveyard when its effect resolves. It is on the field with the 'destroyed' category. It would/should fall under the Morphing Jar #2 area.

Morphing Jar #2 sends itself to the Graveyard during its effect resolution (if destroyed in battle).

It does not remain on the field while you are special summoning. These effects put everything in the right places first, before they start everything in motion. destroyed cards go to the Grave.

Thats how i see the Fiber ruling working.

 

[Dlanaan]

It does not send itself to the Graveyard when its effect resolves. Its effect resolves during the 'Resolve Effects' portion of the Damage Step which is before the point where monsters that have been destroyed as a result of battle are sent to the Graveyard.

Remember that the Damage Step is in basically 4 parts (with exceptions for some effects like Sasuke, etc.)

1. Flip face-down card up.
2. Calculate Damage (monsters are considered destroyed here)
3. Resolve Effects (Flip Effects included)
4. Send to the Graveyard.

Fiber Jar is an oddity.

 

[novastar]

This is off topic, and i guess i'm sorry for bringing it up.

I'll just agree to disagree.

You can Special Summon up to 5 monsters to the field with Morphing Jar #2, which means that it sends itself to the graveyard beforehand. It does not wait on the field until the send to the graveyard portion of the Damage Step. It is an unwritten portion of the effect, just as Cyber Jar also sends itself to the graveyard.

The Fiber Jar ruling is an oddity in your opinion, not mine.

 

[Maester Bacman]

Well. I don't see it like that. Let me try my argument.

If the card sends itself to the graveyard beforehand, now that I am looking, It could never return to the deck. A face-up Banisher of the Light would mean that the card would be removed from play before resolving its effect.  Or, if Morphing Jar #2 would be destroyed in battle with a face-up Grave Protector on the field, if I get your argument, it would be returned to the owner's Deck. But:

Message: 4         
   Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:15:19 -0000
   From: "ibigdogduel" <IBigDog@aol.com>
Subject: grave protector vs. cyber/morphing #2 jar

if i have a face up grave protector and a face down morphing jar #2
and my opponent attacks my face down morphing jar #2, does my morphing
jar #2
return to the deck by grave protectors effect? what if its a cyber
jar instead of a morphing jar #2?


Answer:

The Morphing Jar #2/Cyber Jar would still go to the Graveyard because
"Grave Protector" will not be face-up on the field anymore.
(Due to the effects of Morphing Jar #2/Cyber Jar)

-------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep

I Italicized the word "Grave Protector", because I changed the words there to avoid confusion; Curtis missed the real Card Name here [Look original Message, "Protector of the Sanctuary" was there]

When monsters are destroyed through battle, they enter in a state where those are not considered on the field, nor in the graveyard, when resolving effects. That's when is good to talk about "on the field with the 'destroyed' category.". Think about Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer against Witch of the Black Forest, or the return of a destroyed Penguin Soldier.

Fiber Jar is an oddity because it is the only card, I think, that gets affected during that state, because It grabs everything; everything but removed from play cards.

I think I get your picture about the unwritten portion of the effect, but it brings a lot of mysteries, according to the cases that I have mentioned.

Well, that's my point of view. Hope this could clear things a little.

 

[novastar]

When monsters are destroyed through battle, they enter in a state where those are not considered on the field, nor in the graveyard, when resolving effects.
[..]
Fiber Jar is an oddity because it is the only card, I think, that gets affected during that state, because It grabs everything; everything but removed from play cards.

That is a good point, and that cound very well be. Unfortunately, the main problem is that the proper mechanics have never been laid out comprehensively. So we are left to theorize.

Th golden rule allows effects to break the rules, and from a card text point of view, it is difficult to state "everything except cards removed from play" and have everyone understand what the means. Plus, going by your theory, we have never really been given any explaination or definition of this "state" that destroyed monsters "live" in.

If some consider it "odd" thats fine, I would just see it as an effect that breaks the rules, like many others.

 

[novastar]

Also some additional things to consider...

If the card sends itself to the graveyard beforehand, now that I am looking, It could never return to the deck. A face-up Banisher of the Light would mean that the card would be removed from play before resolving its effect.  Or, if Morphing Jar #2 would be destroyed in battle with a face-up Grave Protector on the field, if I get your argument, it would be returned to the owner's Deck. But:

Maybe i shouldn't have said beforehand. Lets assume that all the monsters are taken off the field at the same time, and sent to the appropriate places, before you begin to "pick-up" cards. Which is actually what i originally meant by what i said.

If "Banisher of the Light" would be sent to the Graveyard at the same time as other cards are sent to the Graveyard, all cards are sent to the Graveyard.

That is the previous Netrep Files ruling (that is also in the ARRJ). I think its safe to assume that Grave Protector would be no different (infact even more so). There is also no reason to believe that this line of thinking doesn't also apply, when the cards are all removed from the field at the same time as well.

If i were to go with my line of thinking, and the ruling above, even if Grave Protector or Banisher of the Light were face-up at the time either Cyber or MJ#2 were destroyed in battle, they would still be sent to the Graveyard (by their effects) because all the monsters are being taken off the field at the exact same time. The continuous effects of both Banisher and Grave Protector would not apply or cease to exist.

All and all, I could see it going either way. That is just the way i've always seen it. Good discussion, but its waaaay off topic, so i will leave it at that.

 

[Raijinili]

Curtis explained it with a simple "it has nowhere else to go".

 

[OKShadow]

OK here's my input, two cents, whatever you want to call it. As my understanding goes when MJ2 and CJ resolve (Morphing Jar 2 and Cyber Jar respectively), the controller of the creatures can determine the order the creatures leave the field. In CJ's case, that means for example if one player has Banisher of the Light and DD Scout Plane when when the blasted jar goes off then that player could choose to put DD Scout in the RFG area by Banisher's effect before sending the Ban Man himself to the graveyard. Then that player has a guaranteed creature on the field. Or would it end up going to the GY anyways as it would take place before the "pick up 5 cards" portion begins? Reminds me of say Last Turn when either player has Despair from the Dark, Night Assassin, or cards with similar effects. Despair would hit the field and the "defending" player when Last Turn was activated (the one not activating it) could special summon something else to the field. :boxing:

 

[Maester Bacman]

As my understanding goes when MJ2 and CJ resolve (Morphing Jar 2 and Cyber Jar respectively), the controller of the creatures can determine the order the creatures leave the field.

Well, that is something new to me. But I can bet that all the monsters leave the field at the same time, like with Dark Hole.

Good discussion, but its waaaay off topic, so i will leave it at that.

I agree. Let's leave Null and Void alone.

Well, sending greetings to the cards that were discussed here ["Null and Void" and "Fiber Jar"], I would say that this case is closed, until future topics.

 

[Raijinili]

As my understanding goes when MJ2 and CJ resolve (Morphing Jar 2 and Cyber Jar respectively), the controller of the creatures can determine the order the creatures leave the field.

The cards are considered leaving the field at the same time. Banisher of Light would not remove any cards sent at the same time.