Opportunists......Warning, Game Loss, or DQ?

[roadhouse007]

At this weekends regionals, there was a player who did something VERY bad that I feel should be discussed.....taking advantage of uneducated players who are also afraid to call a judge over because of the experience their opponent seems to have. Here is a given scenario. If I were the player to get screwed in this situation, I would feel like a dumbass and then call a judge over to save my kiester! Here goes....

Your opponent summons his Sangan or Mystic Tomato and runs it into your stronger monster, while he/she is doing so, says "Kamikase". Without thinking, you place your monster in the graveyard. Your opponent moves on with their battle phase, or ends their turn, and you realize that you wrongly placed the monster in the graveyard and it should not have died. You let your opponent know and they tell you because you already placed it in the graveyard you have now lost the monster and it is your own fault for not paying closer attention.

I know what I would do in this situation, call a judge and have them repair the game state to its proper place. But I really do not know how to handle it as a judge. Maybe the decision would go on the players history, if they had tried to use cheap win tricks before. The player in question that I am speaking of has:

1) Noticed before start of a game that opponent did not add RFG pile monsters back to their deck. After he/she was going to lose for sure, called a judge and told them that monster RFG had not been in play, causing an illegal deck. Game loss awarded.

2) Has gotten inside opponents head, making them declare the opposite of what they had intended based on confusion. He/she did this to me before, as I had a mystic LV2 and don on my field all he/she had was 1 f/d monster. I declared attack with LV2 and then Don and he/she said "attack with Don? " before he had removed his/her F/D Sangan from the field.Without thinking I said "yeah, wait no" and they said "too late, you attacked the F/D with Don."

How would you rule in this situation, first not knowing the players history of manipulation and then knowing their history of manipulation? I agree that sometimes it is a mental game, but is this not going too far?

 

[Tiso]

Even without knowing prior history, it would be pretty obvious to a judge if a skilled player like that did not even question that his Sangan should have died in battle in the first place was obviously mind wipping the poor kid.

 

[Jason_C]

It is both players' responsibility to monitor the game state. The kid was wrong to put his monster in the grave, but the playa was wrong not to point it out. Warnings to both of them, if it happens again, double game losses. But then, I'm no jusge. Ro speeler.

 

[Dillie-O]

Part of the problem is that a turn or to after things have happened, it could be near impossible to repair or rewind the game state to where it was before. Has a searcher monster been played since then? The deck can't be restored to its state. Have some spell/traps cards also been played? Can those be restored? "Rewinding" isn't always a practical thing and then the issue becomes the severity of the issue.

This particluar scenario troubles me on multiple levels. I'm in the process of studying up on Tournament Policies and the like, so I'll let some more veterans answer that one 8^D

 

[krazykidpsx]

It is both players' responsibility to monitor the game state. The kid was wrong to put his monster in the grave, but the playa was wrong not to point it out. Warnings to both of them, if it happens again, double game losses. But then, I'm no jusge. Ro speeler.

Id actually do what you did.

warning both players. but ive stated it numerous times this is a childs game and they probably would recive a level of punishment equal to the age/knowledge they have about the game.

at the tourney that I monitor everyweek i always find somebody that i have to keep telling their opponent "STOP! your opponent has to discard." Or "STOP! You havent declared your phases"

Etc... Etc...

Some player even belive that stating phases is annoying, repatative, and stupid.

If it so stupid why is it that the judges have to suffer with ruling questions / questions like these in the first place.

You as the player should state what you want to do. It doesnt matter what your opponent asks of you.

If the game is the one that asks you to attack said monster then so be it, but the game doenst ask you to attack certain monster.

in this case the person cheated by stating "attack face down with don" that literally is making somebody know that what they want dead they dont want dead by another creature but that one specific creature.

That is emediate attention to call a judge. On the spot and tell them what the opponent has been trying to do throughout the entire game.

the ceneraio of "Kamikase", Think about it this way, If you fall for what ever your opponent states you should be punished for it.

BOTH players should be attentive in EVERY scenario.

Do you know how many times a week I have to tell players "Read the card"?

alot because half of them never read the cards they just assumed of certain effects. Sometimes you even find a little extra bonus by just Reading the card.

also remember EVERY judge is different, and they punish players based upon what they belive not what all judges belive.

just ask Mr. John Danker.

 

[roadhouse007]

Even without knowing prior history, it would be pretty obvious to a judge if a skilled player like that did not even question that his Sangan should have died in battle in the first place was obviously mind wipping the poor kid.

The player did know that Sangan was dying, or Mystic Tomato. But at the same time it died, the opponent put his monster in the graveyard, and the player said nothing, just continued with their turn after the Sangan/Tomato effect. But I agree. You see a player that knows what they are doing taking advantage of a situation like that in my opinion is unsportsmanlike conduct, which is handled in player management guidelines. But to what degree?

It is both players' responsibility to monitor the game state. The kid was wrong to put his monster in the grave, but the playa was wrong not to point it out. Warnings to both of them, if it happens again, double game losses. But then, I'm no jusge. Ro speeler.

I agree here also. But after you notice that the same player on the Sangan/Tomato side of the situation playing another completely different person later in the day"¦"¦.He's goin down. Hard too.

The problem was a judge was never called to fix the situation. The player in question did exceptional (I Will not denote exact placing because that would give away identity of player in question to those who know which regional I am reffering to.) and was bragging to me on Sunday about doing it because a similar situation came up in a game between me and him. I almost put my D.D. Survivor in my graveyard when he ran his Sangan into it and he started going on about doing that to people at regionals.

But would it be correct to just repair the game state to the point where the monster was wrongly placed in the graveyard if a warning was issued? This is the major point I want to find out. If I saw someone trying to take advantage of this, and they complained about a warning, I would imediately give a game loss to the complaining player and just say start next game. To my understanding the only reason to award a game loss is if the game state is unable to be repaired.

And Jsaon you are complteely rihgt. You cnat spell. But did you konw taht at lesat the frist and lsat lettres are rhigt that the hmuan brain can compreehnd waht it sees by associtaion?

 

[Jason_C]

Do you know how many times a week I have to tell players "Read the card"?

alot because half of them never read the cards they just assumed of certain effects. Sometimes you even find a little extra bonus by just Reading the card.

I know. I used to know this one guy who had a Swift Gaia the Fierce Knight, and was absolutely convinced it did not have to be the only card in his hand in order for him to summon it. I literally spent 10 minutes arguing with this guy because he insisted that nowhere on the card did it say that. And he had the card in his hand.

People shouldn't call details stupid at the same time that they call a judge over because they can't comprehend the stupid details.

Reminds me of the people who call some of the video games I play "stupid kiddie games" despite their COMPLETE failure at any attempt to actually play such a game.

 

[Tiso]

Because stating phases is very "noobish" and anyone who is doing it is considered a "Yu-Gi-Oh! noob". That is probably the reason, the main reason, why most do not bother with it. I will agree there are people who probably would not know that you HAVE to declare these things like, I am going to activate my Spell Card.... I enter my Draw Phase, I am ending my Draw Phase, etc. I always do this no matter how "noobish" it makes me. Want to know why? It annoys people having to sit through this, which then in turn throws them off their game when they think they are dueling an annoying person.

 

[roadhouse007]

(after seeing krazy kids post...)

I get you. Kind of like playing a proxy (not proto, LOL) Cyber Dragon and saying you can special summon it as long as your opponent has a monster, not noting that you have to have no monsters. Or trying to special summon a Cyber Dragon while you have goat tokens because goat tokens are not monsters, although the same player has metamorphed a goat token into thousand eyes.....

Another player in the same area acts the same way. I had to play this guy at the regional myself. I declared enter battle phase, he said ok. I only declared enter battle phase because I knew he was a bastard player. I attacked with Spirit Reaper and he used Threatening Roar, telling me it stopped my Spirit Reapers attack. I said "BULL****, you know better." and called a judge. He used his roar meaninglessly, and I discarded his only card in hand. Sucks for him.

That is one other thing. When players that try to find situations to take advantage of their opponent other than fairly, if the player is experienced it WILL Backfire on them. It always does when one of these two guys tries to do it to me. Cheaters never win, unless you don't get caught.....LOL.

 

[krazykidpsx]

Because stating phases is very "noobish" and anyone who is doing it is considered a "Yu-Gi-Oh! noob". That is probably the reason, the main reason, why most do not bother with it. I will agree there are people who probably would not know that you HAVE to declare these things like, I am going to activate my Spell Card.... I enter my Draw Phase, I am ending my Draw Phase, etc. I always do this no matter how "noobish" it makes me. Want to know why? It annoys people having to sit through this, which then in turn throws them off their game when they think they are dueling an annoying person.

Its called them not beign profesional players.

if they think its "N00bish" to state phases then they oviously arnt profesional players.

me and my friends go in "sinc" when we play.

 

[Tiso]

The best policy is to just play it fairly, loud in a clear voice stating your moves and we would not have confusion like when to use a Threatening Roar.

 

[krazykidpsx]

The best policy is to just play it fairly, loud in a clear voice stating your moves and we would not have confusion like when to use a Threatening Roar.

exactly but how many players will abide by this?

 

[Tiso]

exactly but how many players will abide by this?

The vast majority of the playerbase will not, which already says enough about the current state of the game. If is not the CC Decks running around, cards being splashed into any Deck because it is a staple that is not a problem, then it is the ever changing and comical decisions about rulings on cards, and if that is not a problem then there is the lack of respect and understanding of how the game is supposed to be played by players. See, like the show we have our own postering. It is called being fair and to the lettter of the rules and gameplay mechanics.

 

[John Danker]

Because stating phases is very "noobish" and anyone who is doing it is considered a "Yu-Gi-Oh! noob". That is probably the reason, the main reason, why most do not bother with it. I will agree there are people who probably would not know that you HAVE to declare these things like, I am going to activate my Spell Card.... I enter my Draw Phase, I am ending my Draw Phase, etc. I always do this no matter how "noobish" it makes me. Want to know why? It annoys people having to sit through this, which then in turn throws them off their game when they think they are dueling an annoying person.

In the opinion of judges who are well seasoned it does NOT seem "noobish"

I can truthfully say that on average I make 2 calls every regional tournament that greatly harm a player's chances of winning the game because they did not announce their phases. Calls where I force the rewind back to a given phase after a player has already revealed their intentions.

How many times do we see a player draw, pause a few seconds and announce an attack? Or, move directly from enter battle phase to announcing an attack? The problem with not announcing your phases is it usually ends up harming YOU, the player who doesn't announce them.

Personally, I'll look "noobish" and let my opponent make the mistakes, I'll "look" noobish and he'll prove to be.

 

[John Danker]

Your opponent summons his Sangan or Mystic Tomato and runs it into your stronger monster, while he/she is doing so, says "Kamikase". Without thinking, you place your monster in the graveyard. Your opponent moves on with their battle phase, or ends their turn, and you realize that you wrongly placed the monster in the graveyard and it should not have died. You let your opponent know and they tell you because you already placed it in the graveyard you have now lost the monster and it is your own fault for not paying closer attention.

It's really going to depend upon how far play has advanced after this mistake. As a judge we have to assume that it was unintentional until proven otherwise. It's completely possible that the attacking player was seaching their deck and didn't even notice the opposing player put their monster in the graveyard. (unlikely as when they look back the opposing player may have no monsters on the field but possible) If play has advanced too far rewinding the game would be undoable (thats a word right? <laffin>) If play has not advanced too far it's entirely possible that the game state may be rewound (if, for example they still in the same battle phase)

This type of scenario though should be noted and the head judge should be informed of it.

1) Noticed before start of a game that opponent did not add RFG pile monsters back to their deck. After he/she was going to lose for sure, called a judge and told them that monster RFG had not been in play, causing an illegal deck. Game loss awarded.

Here again I'm afraid it's very difficult to prove intent on the part of the player who called a judge over after seeing their opponent did not shuffle back in their RFP cards.

2) Has gotten inside opponents head, making them declare the opposite of what they had intended based on confusion. He/she did this to me before, as I had a mystic LV2 and don on my field all he/she had was 1 f/d monster. I declared attack with LV2 and then Don and he/she said "attack with Don? " before he had removed his/her F/D Sangan from the field.Without thinking I said "yeah, wait no" and they said "too late, you attacked the F/D with Don."

How would you rule in this situation, first not knowing the players history of manipulation and then knowing their history of manipulation? I agree that sometimes it is a mental game, but is this not going too far?

If I was called to this scenario, after listening to this description and assuming the opposing player aGreed this was indeed the case I'd rule that the intent was for the attacking player to begin with the attack of Mystic Swordsman LV2. This is a case of common sense. Since the judge was not present at the time of the verbal Exchange it would be difficult to assume, however, if the non-turn player aGreed this exact scenario was the case and the verbal Exchange was as well I'd be hard pressed not to issue a game loss for unsporting conduct at least.

 

[00Patience]

Just plain and simple if you can return the game to the state that it was in do so, if you cannot a game loss should be recieved.

 

[mortals]

I would agree. You would have to examine all the moves that were made from the point of the mistake all the way to the point when the judge was called. If it was caught in time, then you can just return the searched monster back into the deck and shuffle it as it is still properly randomized.

If the gameplay has advanced too far and far too many things have occured, then a warning to both players and the gameplay continues.

 

[krazykidpsx]

I would agree. You would have to examine all the moves that were made from the point of the mistake all the way to the point when the judge was called. If it was caught in time, then you can just return the searched monster back into the deck and shuffle it as it is still properly randomized.

If the gameplay has advanced too far and far too many things have occured, then a warning to both players and the gameplay continues.

actually the search of the Sangan would have been fine what isnt fine is the damage. the creature should have returned and you would return back to the game state after Sangan had used its effect.

 

[mortals]

Of course, if you were to rewind the game state, then all the lifepoints lost would be reversed to the point where the error occured.

 

[Tiso]

The only thing I dislike about reversing game states is that you will each have an advantage over the other at least one player will. If they used a Torrential Tribute during this time and then it gets to a point where we go back to the state that was in error, I know at least for me I would now play differently since I know he/she has it.