Let's say I have a Pyramid Turtle in attack mode, I activate reinforcements and attack a Revival Jam with Umi on the field (1700 vs. 1700) we both die. I summon Ryu Kokki to the field with Pyramid Turtle's effect. Can my opponent activate Revival Jam's "optional" effect by announcing his intent to pay the 1000 life points or has he missed his chance because Ryu Kokki has been summoned after he was sent to the Grave?
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Optional effect?
- Thread starter anthonyj
- Start date
http://www.netrep.net/content/view/50/38/
In this scenario since both cards are sent to the graveyard at the same time, both effects are put into a chain.
The turn player would be step 1 in the chain (Pyramid Turtle's effect).
Your opponent would be step 2 in the chain (Revival Jam's effect).
Resolution:
1) Your opponent pays 1000LP to have Revival Jam return to the field their next standby phase.
2) Then you get to special summon a zombie due to Pyramid Turtle's effect.
- Andrew
In this scenario since both cards are sent to the graveyard at the same time, both effects are put into a chain.
The turn player would be step 1 in the chain (Pyramid Turtle's effect).
Your opponent would be step 2 in the chain (Revival Jam's effect).
Resolution:
1) Your opponent pays 1000LP to have Revival Jam return to the field their next standby phase.
2) Then you get to special summon a zombie due to Pyramid Turtle's effect.
- Andrew
It is an optional effect, but if you also look at the ruling about this from that link, their first example is if Mystic Tomato kills Mystic Tomato in battle. Mystic Tomato's effect is optional, but both were still put in said chain to be resolved.
- Andrew
- Andrew
Tomato is not optional so you have no choice but to put them in a chain. And 2 Peten sent to the Graveyard via Painful Choice doesn't represent what I'm talking about either. Obviously if 2 Peten are sent to the Graveyard via Painful Choice you could only activate one of them because only one could resolve successfully anyway there would only be 1 Peten left in your hand or deck to special summon. Now, I'd be interested to see the ruling on Peten and Gilfar Demon both being sent via Painful Choice and I'll pretty much guarantee you'd have to choose one or the other to activate. What I'm talking about is this:
Revival Jam is an optional effect, thus according to the rulings we currently have on optional effects it must have no other actions occurring once it has its trigger fulfilled or you can't activate the effect. Pyramid Turtle or any of the elemental searchers are not optional thus must be resolved. So in my given scenario I have to assume Revival Jam can not be triggered as the special summon of a monster is still happening when it is sent to the graveyard.
Revival Jam is an optional effect, thus according to the rulings we currently have on optional effects it must have no other actions occurring once it has its trigger fulfilled or you can't activate the effect. Pyramid Turtle or any of the elemental searchers are not optional thus must be resolved. So in my given scenario I have to assume Revival Jam can not be triggered as the special summon of a monster is still happening when it is sent to the graveyard.
Mystic Tomato:
When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 DARK monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.
Pyramid Turtle:
When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you may select 1 Zombie-Type monster with a DEF of 2000 or less from your Deck and Special Summon it to the field in face-up Attack or Defense Position (no Tribute is required for monsters of Level 5 or more). The Deck is then shuffled.
The "can" and "may" in their effects make both of them optional. Neither is required if you don't want to special summon a monster of the appropriate type for whatever reason.
- Andrew
When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 DARK monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.
Pyramid Turtle:
When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you may select 1 Zombie-Type monster with a DEF of 2000 or less from your Deck and Special Summon it to the field in face-up Attack or Defense Position (no Tribute is required for monsters of Level 5 or more). The Deck is then shuffled.
The "can" and "may" in their effects make both of them optional. Neither is required if you don't want to special summon a monster of the appropriate type for whatever reason.
- Andrew
anthonyj said:Tomato is not optional so you have no choice but to put them in a chain. And 2 Peten sent to the Graveyard via Painful Choice doesn't represent what I'm talking about either. Obviously if 2 Peten are sent to the Graveyard via Painful Choice you could only activate one of them because only one could resolve successfully anyway there would only be 1 Peten left in your hand or deck to special summon. Now, I'd be interested to see the ruling on Peten and Gilfar Demon both being sent via Painful Choice and I'll pretty much guarantee you'd have to choose one or the other to activate. What I'm talking about is this:
Revival Jam is an optional effect, thus according to the rulings we currently have on optional effects it must have no other actions occurring once it has its trigger fulfilled or you can't activate the effect. Pyramid Turtle or any of the elemental searchers are not optional thus must be resolved. So in my given scenario I have to assume Revival Jam can not be triggered as the special summon of a monster is still happening when it is sent to the graveyard.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Tomato is an optional effect.
"When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you can Special Summon 1 DARK monster with an ATK of 1500 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck."
The "you can" text is what makes this optional. You have the right to choose NOT to look for a dark monster.
"When this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, you may select 1 Zombie-Type monster with a DEF of 2000 or less from your Deck and Special Summon it to the field in face-up Attack or Defense Position (no Tribute is required for monsters of Level 5 or more). The Deck is then shuffled. "
Pyramid Turtle is ALSO another optional effect.
Now about Revival Jam, you will still be able to activate the effect and pay the 1000 lp because it was properly destroyed (in battle) and it is not in the middle of any other card effect that is resolving. Supposing that Jam and Tomato (getting hungry now . . .) are the same attack strength and destroy each other in battle, the turn player will have the priority to place their effect on the chain before the opponent (which is SEGOC). If Jam belonged to the turn player it would be Chain Link 1, and Tomato would be Chain Link 2. I'm assuming you know how to resove chains so you can figure it out from there.
I am only confirming what others have said before me, this is the correct ruling.
Sorry, I should have read the cards to be more accurate. My question still stands though. Peten is contingent upon timing for what reason? Is it the word "When", then the elemental searchers have the same problem. Is it a question of fear of infinite looping? Then we'd better patch some bigger holes. The current ruling states you can't interrupt the chain, well guess what the searchers do they just have to wait for the chain to end first. Is it that you would have to remove it from the graveyard "when" it is sent to the graveyard? Then I fail to see why Revival Jam shouldn't have a similar condition since you are choosing to place a condition where it will remove itself from the graveyard "when" it is sent.
If it is all optional effects (since we have a ruling on Mobius and Peten which prevents the effect in a chain), or some kind of conditional setting where the game mechanics would plumit into chaos, or some other such reason, I would like a consistent answer on why some effects do or don't work in this or that situation instead of a (well we've thought it over and decided the card would be too powerful so we are going to errata or dance around in a circle and use circular logic so we feel like the game has been "saved".)
If it is all optional effects (since we have a ruling on Mobius and Peten which prevents the effect in a chain), or some kind of conditional setting where the game mechanics would plumit into chaos, or some other such reason, I would like a consistent answer on why some effects do or don't work in this or that situation instead of a (well we've thought it over and decided the card would be too powerful so we are going to errata or dance around in a circle and use circular logic so we feel like the game has been "saved".)
Maester Bacman
New Member
The thing about elemental searchers is that their effects only could be activated after battle. Those monsters don't face all the problems of Peten the Dark Clown's effect.
What about this case?
After a lot of things, my Pyramid Turtle is now with 1100 of attack. I try to crash with a face-up Witch of the Black Forest. Crash. Both monsters go to their respective graveyards. Could I say this?
The last event to happen was the arrival of both monsters to the Graveyard. Then, before the new chain starts, it could be possible to choose to use the effect of my Pyramid Turtle, provoking a SEGOC, with Pyramid Turtle as Chain Link 1 and Witch of the Black Forest in Chain Link 2. I thought of this ruling based in the Mystical Knight of Jackal vs. Witch of the Black Forest case.
Is this right?
What about this case?
After a lot of things, my Pyramid Turtle is now with 1100 of attack. I try to crash with a face-up Witch of the Black Forest. Crash. Both monsters go to their respective graveyards. Could I say this?
The last event to happen was the arrival of both monsters to the Graveyard. Then, before the new chain starts, it could be possible to choose to use the effect of my Pyramid Turtle, provoking a SEGOC, with Pyramid Turtle as Chain Link 1 and Witch of the Black Forest in Chain Link 2. I thought of this ruling based in the Mystical Knight of Jackal vs. Witch of the Black Forest case.
Is this right?
Yes, that is perfectly fine.After a lot of things, my Pyramid Turtle is now with 1100 of attack. I try to crash with a face-up Witch of the Black Forest. Crash. Both monsters go to their respective graveyards. Could I say this?
Well, this is the first i've heard of Pyramid Turtle being an optional trigger, but if it is then mandatories would always go first on the chain (in priority order) and then optionals. So, Pyramid Turtle will be Chain Link 2 in this case.The last event to happen was the arrival of both monsters to the Graveyard. Then, before the new chain starts, it could be possible to choose to use the effect of my Pyramid Turtle, provoking a SEGOC, with Pyramid Turtle as Chain Link 1 and Witch of the Black Forest in Chain Link 2. I thought of this ruling based in the Mystical Knight of Jackal vs. Witch of the Black Forest case.
Is this right?
novastar said:...mandatories would always go first on the chain (in priority order) and then optionals. So, Pyramid Turtle will be Chain Link 2 in this case.
I thought in a Simultaneous Effects, the turn player gets to be the Chain Link 1, and not by the mandatory or optional effect of a monster.
http://www.netrep.net/content/view/50/38/
Raigekick said:novastar said:...mandatories would always go first on the chain (in priority order) and then optionals. So, Pyramid Turtle will be Chain Link 2 in this case.
I thought in a Simultaneous Effects, the turn player gets to be the Chain Link 1, and not by the mandatory or optional effect of a monster.
http://www.netrep.net/content/view/50/38/
They do.
Turn player will always have their effects go first on the chain if it's SEGOC. An effect is an effect, regardless of it being mandatory or optional.
Maester Bacman
New Member
It deals with simultaneous effects. I have a nifty acronym.
Simultaneous
Effects
Go
On
Chains
SEGOC.
Enjoy.
Kevin Tewart
Maester Bacman said:The thing about elemental searchers is that their effects only could be activated after battle. Those monsters don't face all the problems of Peten the Dark Clown's effect.
What about this case?
After a lot of things, my Pyramid Turtle is now with 1100 of attack. I try to crash with a face-up Witch of the Black Forest. Crash. Both monsters go to their respective graveyards. Could I say this?
The last event to happen was the arrival of both monsters to the Graveyard. Then, before the new chain starts, it could be possible to choose to use the effect of my Pyramid Turtle, provoking a SEGOC, with Pyramid Turtle as Chain Link 1 and Witch of the Black Forest in Chain Link 2. I thought of this ruling based in the Mystical Knight of Jackal vs. Witch of the Black Forest case.
Is this right?
So what if Shinato killed the searcher, his effect activates after the searcher is sent to the graveyard, would that prevent you from using the optional effect? See Peten is an example of inconsistency. There are plenty of situations where his ruling could trip up other rulings.
Maester Bacman
New Member
Then, my case of Witch of the Black vs. Pyramid Turtle is resolved correctly, as it seems.
Well, fortunately, searchers have their advantages. Peten has really caused a revolution, specially when everyone knew this nasty ruling of optional text. But, to be honest, that saves the card from being a very broken one.
Well, fortunately, searchers have their advantages. Peten has really caused a revolution, specially when everyone knew this nasty ruling of optional text. But, to be honest, that saves the card from being a very broken one.