ordeal of a traveler

[franchise]

when can u turn this trap card into face up postion?

 

[slither]

The cards initial activation can be done at anytime, the effect will only be inclined to activation when a monster attacks.

 

[Kyhotae]

Like I said, it says that because it's a continuous card, but the effect goes off the first time you activate it, just like "Fairy Box", so you can't activate it at all until the opponent attacks with a monster. Just like it says on the card.

 

[slither]

Appropriate
You can activate this card when your opponent draws a card outside of his/her Draw Phase. After that, each time your opponent draws cards outside of his/her Draw Phase, you draw 2 cards.

Forced Requisition
You can activate this card when you discard from your hand. After that, each time you discard from your hand, your opponent must also discard the same number of cards from his/her hand.

Those are timed activation cards, while Ordeal of the Traveler might have a vague text, it doesn't have any activation timing. We've been back and forth with Fairy Box and at the end that is just a BKSS situation.

 

[Kyhotae]

Well, Konami hasn't "said so" about either "Fairy Box" or "Ordeal of the Traveller" as far as I could find, so you have to go by the text. You can't activate "Ordeal of the Traveller" until an attack is declared. That's what it says in the first sentence.

 

[Raigekick]

Activating a card by playing it is different from activating a card's effect to use it.

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/advancedgameplay/default.aspx

Note on terminology: Some Continuous Trap Cards have effects that can be re-used, such as "Ultimate Offering", "Skull Lair", etc. To "activate" these Trap Cards is to flip the Trap Card from face-down to face-up, just like with any other Trap Card. Once the card is activated, you may "use" the card, or "use its effect", or "activate the effect." These are all synonymous terms but are different from activation of the card (which still means flipping the Trap Card face-up). The "use" of a Continuous Trap Card's effect (which has a Spell Speed of 2) can be chained and can be chained to. You CANNOT activate (flip face-up) a Continuous Trap Card and also use its effect in the same chain. In order to use the effect of a Continuous Trap Card, it must have been activated (flipped face-up) before the current chain was initiated.

As you can see, if you activate to use the card in response to an attack, you can NOT use it's effect at the same chain.

 

[slither]

Well, Konami hasn't "said so" about either "Fairy Box" or "Ordeal of the Traveller" as far as I could find, so you have to go by the text. You can't activate "Ordeal of the Traveller" until an attack is declared. That's what it says in the first sentence.

Actually it doesn't, is says activate the "effect", that's why made mention of the previous two cards which clearly state activate this card, as well as all the other cards with specific timing, just another example:

Sakuretsu Armor
You can only activate this card when your opponent declares an attack. Destroy the attacking monster.

and so forth, for instance, check this card:

Soul Demolition
You can only activate this card's effect when you have a Fiend-Type monster on your side of the field. Pay 500 Life Points to use this effect. Both players select 1 Monster Card from their opponent's Graveyard. Remove the selected cards from play.

Rulings

If either player has no monsters in their Graveyard, the effect of this card cannot be activated.


It makes no mention of the activation of the card itself.

 

[Raigekick]

Like what I said two posts ago, There is a difference between (1) activating a card by playing it (flipping face up) and (2) activating a card's effect to use it (putting effects on chain). Unfortunately, YGO uses the same "activate" word to describe both situation. Please reffer to my post above.

 

[Kyhotae]

You're not chaining anything with "Ordeal of a Traveller" and you guys are mincing words. It says that because the card is continuous, but the effect is not. It's an optional trigger effect, but the conditions have to be correct because the effect activates the first time it's activated, too. It's not an optional ignition effect (like Konami talks about in the Advanced FAQ), so it works differently. It cannot be activated unless an attack is declared.

 

[Chillout1984]

Yes it can.

Same with Royal Decree, you can activate it when no trap card is activated.
Same with Imperial Order, you can activate it when no spell card is activated.
Same with Royal Oppression, you can activate it when no monster is summoned.
Same with Skull Lair, you can activate it when there are no monsters to be destroyed.
Same with Mirror Wall, you can activate it when no monsters are attacking.

 

[John Danker]

I think the text of Ordeal Of A Traveler is about as clear as it can be.

You can only activate this card's effect when your opponent declares an attack. Your opponent selects 1 random card in your hand and calls the type of the card (Monster, Spell, or Trap). If your opponent calls it wrong, the attacking monster is returned to its owner's hand.

The card doesn't say, "You can only activate this card....." It clearly states "You can only activate this card's effect...."

The timing is correct to activate the card at any point in which you have priority, just as it is with Gravity Bind, Waboku, etc.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Note on terminology: Some Continuous Trap Cards have effects that can be re-used, such as "Ultimate Offering", "Skull Lair", etc. To "activate" these Trap Cards is to flip the Trap Card from face-down to face-up, just like with any other Trap Card. Once the card is activated, you may "use" the card, or "use its effect", or "activate the effect." These are all synonymous terms but are different from activation of the card (which still means flipping the Trap Card face-up). The "use" of a Continuous Trap Card's effect (which has a Spell Speed of 2) can be chained and can be chained to. You CANNOT activate (flip face-up) a Continuous Trap Card and also use its effect in the same chain. In order to use the effect of a Continuous Trap Card, it must have been activated (flipped face-up) before the current chain was initiated.

That's talking about Manually activating a trap card's effect.

Kyhatoe suggested that Ordeal of a Traveler is an optional trigger effect: trigger effects are activated automatically (even optional ones).

Since ignition-type effects are by definition optional, the ruling "¢ When "Ordeal of a Traveler" & "Fairy Box" are both active, "Fairy Box" (mandatory) is step 1 of the chain, and "Ordeal of a Traveler" (optional) is step 2. Does not necessarily mean that it is a trigger effect, and not an ignition effect. (Remembering that there are Ignition Monsters that have trigger-like timing)

EDIT: If it is a trigger effect, the first line is only talking about when its effect is triggered, not when the card is activated. Being a continuous trap card it still can be activated without its effect being triggered.

But if it is a trigger effect than if we agree that Fairy Box can trigger its effect when being flipped face-up in response to the chain, then we should rule Ordeal of a Traveller the same way.

 

[slither]

Problem with Fairy Box is the way the text is written, it is totally different from that of Ordeal of a Traveler and Soul Demolition.

Fairy Box
Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks

Ordeal of a Traveler
You can only activate this card's effect when your opponent declares an attack

Soul Demolition
You can only activate this card's effect when you have a Fiend-Type monster on your side of the field

They are totally different ways of expressing the activation timing of each individual card. Fairy Box is ruled that way because it is not speaking of the effect at all, it is mentioning what to do when a monster attacks.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

After checking, the monsters with similar texts are manually activated effects (Ignition / Multi-Trigger).

So let it stand that:
Ordeal of a Traveller is a manually activated effect. And rule accordingly.

 

[Raigekick]

This is how I see it:

Ordeal of a Traveler
You can only activate this card's effect when your opponent declares an attack. Your opponent selects 1 random card in your hand and calls the type of the card (Monster, Spell, or Trap). If your opponent calls it wrong, the attacking monster is returned to its owner's hand.

Analysis:

1. "You can only activate this card's effect ..." <- This is referring to using the card's optional trigger effect and not flipping it face up.
2. "... when your opponent declares an attack" <- The trigger for the effect is when the user declares an attack (selecting an attacking monster an its target)

Game Play:
P1: (Turn player) Declares an attack: Attacker: Gemini Elf; Target=Sheep Token
P1: Passes priority
P2: (CL 1) Plays Ordeal of a Traveler by flipping it face up
P1: No response
P2: No response

Chain resolution:
CL1: Ordeal of a Traveler is faced-up on the field. However, Player P2 can NOT activate it's effect because of 2 things:

1. Optional Trigger Effect can't be activated in a middle of a resolving chain.
2. Optional Trigger Effect can't be activated when the last thing that happened is not the trigger event (the last thing to happened is Ordeal of a Traveler was played).

Battle Step: Gemini Elf attacks the Sheep Token

 

[Kyhotae]

When are you guys gonna realize that it's not "Royal Oppressoin". It has an optional trigger effect. It does not have to resolve to the field before you get the effect. The wording is so because it can be activated multiple times due to the fact that it is a Continuous Trap Card. The effect goes off the first time it is activated, too. It's like a "Sakuretsu Armor" that stays on the field and let's you destroy one attacking monster per turn. The effect triggers the first time it's flippped and every time after that. As such, since you cannot activate the effect unless the opponent declares an attack, the first time you activate it must be in response to an attack as well.

 

[slither]

At least I have no other way to explain it, but in any ocassion no you cannot activate it and use it's effect in the same response window.

 

[Maruno]

When are you guys gonna realize that it's not "Royal Oppression". It has an optional trigger effect. It does not have to resolve to the field before you get the effect. The wording is so because it can be activated multiple times due to the fact that it is a Continuous Trap Card. The effect goes off the first time it is activated, too. It's like a "Sakuretsu Armor" that stays on the field and let's you destroy one attacking monster per turn. The effect triggers the first time it's flippped and every time after that. As such, since you cannot activate the effect unless the opponent declares an attack, the first time you activate it must be in response to an attack as well.

No, that doesn't sound right at all. You can activate the card whenever you want (flip it face-up). You can activate the effect of the card when your opponent's monster attacks (optional).

The card must resolve its activation before its effect can be activated. You can't flip it face-up in response to an attack and use its effect in that same chain. Compare with Ultimate Offering.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

It has an optional trigger effect.

Could you please list everything taht leads you to believe it is a trigger effect?
(If it is a trigger effect i'd agree with what you're saying, but information i posted earlier suggests its actually a Manually Activated effect (ignition-like/multi-trigger))

 

[Raigekick]

Could you please list everything taht leads you to believe it is a trigger effect?

You may be right on this one. It might not be a Optional Trigger Effect, but infact an Optional Multi-Trigger Effect. But in any case, you can NOT activate an Optional Multi-Trigger Effect in the middle of a resolving chain (except if you are using one of the Archfiend monster).

 

[novastar]

Could you please list everything taht leads you to believe it is a trigger effect?
(If it is a trigger effect i'd agree with what you're saying, but information i posted earlier suggests its actually a Manually Activated effect (ignition-like/multi-trigger))

I agree,

It does not share the "When [this] happens, do [this]" functionality that most Trigger Effects do.

It seems similar to having a like a permanent face-up Magic Cylinder or Mirror Force that you can activate at the time of declaration...both of which feature similar activation requirements. It's not really a "Trigger" even though the activation requirements are actually an event-like.

One thing i do disagree on is the interpretation of the ruling. You might very well be right, and it is not triggered, but that ruling is clearly stating that it is...right or wrong.

If it was Ignition-like, they never would have mentioned it all, since is generally understood that Ignition-like Trap Effects always go after Triggers. There would have been no need to state that in ruling...it's in the Rulebook, FAQ, etc. That would be like pointing out that Mirror Force would be Chain Link 2 because it's optional, doesn't make sense.