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when can u turn this trap card into face up postion?
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
The only thing i can think of in the rule book that explains it is about chaining speed, but were not dealing with SEGOC in its usual sense.
Both Fairy Box and Ordeal of a Traveller have Spell Speed 2 effects*. So I don't think its in the Rule Book that Mirror Force would have to be chain Link 2, since Fairy Box is high enough speed to be chained to Mirror Force.
So because of the spell speed, and Also normal "optional trigger effects" would be placed on the chain before fairy box, i'd dismiss the words Mandatory and Optional as a possible coincidence, as the ruling would have to be explaining a different situation, and not necessarily comparing it to our usual SEGOC, and thus not necessarily saying optional "Trigger"
Now the part "is chain link 2" might be taken to imply that it must activate as chain link 2. But since the ruling doesn't place the "check for chaining" anywhere in that, i'd have to argue that the ruling doesn't exclude the possibility of chaining after Fairy Box.
*Source:
"¢ [Re: Ojamagic] Since a Spell Speed 1 effect cannot be chained to a Spell Speed 2 effect, and "Ojamagic" is a Normal Spell Cards, if "Ojamagic" is sent to the Graveyard simultaneously with a Spell Speed 2 card that activates in the Graveyard, like "Statue of the Wicked" or "Dark Coffin", then "Ojamagic" is the first chain link, and the Trap Cards will be the second and third chain links.
Both Fairy Box and Ordeal of a Traveller have Spell Speed 2 effects*. So I don't think its in the Rule Book that Mirror Force would have to be chain Link 2, since Fairy Box is high enough speed to be chained to Mirror Force.
So because of the spell speed, and Also normal "optional trigger effects" would be placed on the chain before fairy box, i'd dismiss the words Mandatory and Optional as a possible coincidence, as the ruling would have to be explaining a different situation, and not necessarily comparing it to our usual SEGOC, and thus not necessarily saying optional "Trigger"
Now the part "is chain link 2" might be taken to imply that it must activate as chain link 2. But since the ruling doesn't place the "check for chaining" anywhere in that, i'd have to argue that the ruling doesn't exclude the possibility of chaining after Fairy Box.
*Source:
"¢ [Re: Ojamagic] Since a Spell Speed 1 effect cannot be chained to a Spell Speed 2 effect, and "Ojamagic" is a Normal Spell Cards, if "Ojamagic" is sent to the Graveyard simultaneously with a Spell Speed 2 card that activates in the Graveyard, like "Statue of the Wicked" or "Dark Coffin", then "Ojamagic" is the first chain link, and the Trap Cards will be the second and third chain links.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Your opponent has Fairy Box on the field, you declare an attack with Panther Warrior by tributing Peten the Dark Clown.darkjason said:
Assuming you do not miss the Timing:
Chain Link 1: Peten the Dark Clown (Optional)
Chain Link 2: Fairy Box (Mandatory)
Because Peten is Spell Speed 1, and Fairy Box is Spell Speed 2.
"Trigger": It activates when an attack is declared and only when an attack is declared. (that is, you must ask the opponent if he is activating his "Ordeal of a Traveller" every time you attack with a monster.).
"Optional": You do not have to activate it if you do not want to.
And I know that you can't activate an effect in the middle of a resolving chain, but when "Ordeal of a Traveller" resolves after it is flipped, the opponent must choose a card in your hand, guess what type of card it is, and return the card to his hand if he's wrong or complete the attack if he's right. Then the card stays on the field and you can use the effect for the next monster, too, if you want.
Once again, these cards are NOT "Utimate Offering" or "Royal Oppression". Those cards have costs to use their effects. They are Ignition Effects. Konami/UDE has already told us how they work, but they are nothing like "Fairy Box" or "Ordeal of a Traveller". They have no cost to "use" the effect as long as the timing is right and you can activate them. It's a totally different situation because they are totally different cards. You'll notice that neither one of them was mentioned in that little blurb in the Advanced FAQ. I don't think that was an accident.
"Optional": You do not have to activate it if you do not want to.
And I know that you can't activate an effect in the middle of a resolving chain, but when "Ordeal of a Traveller" resolves after it is flipped, the opponent must choose a card in your hand, guess what type of card it is, and return the card to his hand if he's wrong or complete the attack if he's right. Then the card stays on the field and you can use the effect for the next monster, too, if you want.
Once again, these cards are NOT "Utimate Offering" or "Royal Oppression". Those cards have costs to use their effects. They are Ignition Effects. Konami/UDE has already told us how they work, but they are nothing like "Fairy Box" or "Ordeal of a Traveller". They have no cost to "use" the effect as long as the timing is right and you can activate them. It's a totally different situation because they are totally different cards. You'll notice that neither one of them was mentioned in that little blurb in the Advanced FAQ. I don't think that was an accident.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Kyhotae said:
Kazejin/Sanga of the Thunder/Suijin: it activates when you enter damage calculation and only when you enter damage calculation.
But it can only affect that one monster, and is ruled a targetting effect, thus it is a manually activated i.e. Ignition/ Multi-Trigger.
One thing you guys need to avoid is labeling trap card effects with monster effects.
Trap cards do NOT have ignition effects; only monsters do. All ignition effects are spell speed 1. Continuous Trap card effects are spell speed 2.
Trap cards do have optional effects and mandatory effects and continuous effects. Many Trap cards have requirements for playing the card and/or activating the effect of the card. Playing or activating a continuous Trap card by first flipping it face-up is NOT the same as activating the Trap card's effect.
I think all of us are aware of this UDE FAQ:
You CANNOT activate (flip face-up) a Continuous Trap Card and also use its effect in the same chain. In order to use the effect of a Continuous Trap Card, it must have been activated (flipped face-up) before the current chain was initiated.
However, I believe this statement was only to be applied to continuous traps with effects that can be re-used in the same chain, such as Ultimate Offering, Skull Lair.
As far as I know, continuous Traps such as Fairy Box that have a mandatory effect will have its effect applied when the trap is first flipped face-up if the timing then is correct.
I am not certain of the ruling for continuous Traps with optional effects such as Ordeal of Traveler. This is a good question for the judge list as it should be clarified in lieu of the UDE FAQ statement above.
doc
Trap cards do NOT have ignition effects; only monsters do. All ignition effects are spell speed 1. Continuous Trap card effects are spell speed 2.
Trap cards do have optional effects and mandatory effects and continuous effects. Many Trap cards have requirements for playing the card and/or activating the effect of the card. Playing or activating a continuous Trap card by first flipping it face-up is NOT the same as activating the Trap card's effect.
I think all of us are aware of this UDE FAQ:
You CANNOT activate (flip face-up) a Continuous Trap Card and also use its effect in the same chain. In order to use the effect of a Continuous Trap Card, it must have been activated (flipped face-up) before the current chain was initiated.
However, I believe this statement was only to be applied to continuous traps with effects that can be re-used in the same chain, such as Ultimate Offering, Skull Lair.
As far as I know, continuous Traps such as Fairy Box that have a mandatory effect will have its effect applied when the trap is first flipped face-up if the timing then is correct.
I am not certain of the ruling for continuous Traps with optional effects such as Ordeal of Traveler. This is a good question for the judge list as it should be clarified in lieu of the UDE FAQ statement above.
doc
John Danker
Administrator
ygo doc said:
....and that's where my question lies due to the wording in Fairy Box....
"Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks......"
The wording "Each time a monster...." only appears on 3 cards in Yugioh. Of those Fairy Box is the only once that adds "attacks" in the wording. So the question in my mind is does "Each time a monster.....attacks" mean declares an attack or is in the process of attacking. If the intention is when it declares an attack then activating Fairy Box in response to the attack would make the timing for the EFFECT of Fairy Box incorrect....if the intent is like Mirror Wall, basically anytime during the process of attack, then the timing would be correct.
While the effect of "Ordeal of a Traveller" is optional, one thing about it is mandatory. You must ask if the effect is going to be used when an attack is declared (except on the first activation because it is assumed that you wouldn't have flipped it if you did not want to use its effect). That's why I believe it, too, get's its effect when first flipped. Of course, if it get's its effect when first flipped, then the timing for the first flip must also coincide with its text, so you can only activate it when an attack is declared.ygo doc said:
You're working backwards there. You're saying that you already believe the card works one way, and you're trying to make the card text mean what you want it to mean.Kyhotae said:
Looking at the card without making any assumptions beforehand, the card says nothing about activating the card itself. So you can activate it whenever you want. The effect of the card can only be activated "when your opponent declares an attack", which is obvious enough.
Continuous cards are different to Normal cards (Spells & Traps) in that generally you can't activate the effect of a Continuous card in the same chain that you activate the card itself. They have to have resolved to the field first before you can start using them. From all available evidence, Ordeal of a Traveller is no different.
You're extrapolating from the Advanced FAQ things that were not said. It said that you cannot activate a Continuous Trap Card and use its effect in the same chain. You don't use the effects of "Fairy Box" and "Ordeal of a Traveller", they are triggered. You're not chaining anything to anything. You aren't paying a cost to activate an effect. The effect is simply firing. No where in the FAQ does it say that cards with trigger effects must be resolved to the field before the trigger works.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Kyhotae said:
I pointed out that your explanation is not definite, as if applied to other cards with similar effects it does not make them trigger effects.
Ordeal of the Traveller targetting or not is not an issue as it is not trying to effect only that monster.
Generally Optional Trigger effects say "you can do this"
Peten: you can remove this card
Searchers: you can Special Summon
As far as i know Archfiend of Gilfer is the only one that says "you can activate" Which might only be there to make the text less complicated.
Since you're not manually activating an Optional Trigger effect, they shouldn't tell you to activate the effect, because, as you've pointed out, they are activating themselves. (i.e. the don't need you to have Priority to activate an effect)
Although they don't use the word "when" I find Ordeal of a Traveller to be more along the texts of: Blast Juggler, Kazejin, Suijin, Sanga of the Thunder, Exarion Universe, Kuriboh
Yeah. All those have optional trigger effects, too. When the appropriate timing occurs, the card make you make a choice. EVERY time those cards reach the appropriate timing, you must decide if you're going to activate the effect or not, but you don't have to. They trigger, you get the option. "When blah-blah happens, you can do blah-blah". It's the same thing as "You can only activate this at blah-blah time..." The trigger is the timing. You must make a choice each time the trigger comes up, not matter what it is. It's a trigger that gives you an option. Or, as I like to call it, an optional trigger effect.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
None of those cards listed are trigger effects.
Blast Juggler, Exarion Universe are ignition effects.
Kuriboh is multi-trigger.
I believe the 3 gate guardian pieces are multi-trigger, but if they are not they are definitiely ignition because their effects are considered targetting: trigger effects that target only that monster (e.g. Yomi-ship) do not target.
ETA:
DOn't know how i missed this:
"¢ When you activate "Ordeal of a Traveler"'s effect as a chain to "Magic Cylinder", since "Ordeal of a Traveler" resolves first, if your opponent guesses incorrectly then the attack does not resolve and the effect of "Magic Cylinder" disappears. If multiple copies of "Ordeal of a Traveler" are active, their effects are cumulative.
Can you chain a Trigger effect to a manuall activated effect? I don't think so!
Blast Juggler, Exarion Universe are ignition effects.
Kuriboh is multi-trigger.
I believe the 3 gate guardian pieces are multi-trigger, but if they are not they are definitiely ignition because their effects are considered targetting: trigger effects that target only that monster (e.g. Yomi-ship) do not target.
ETA:
DOn't know how i missed this:
"¢ When you activate "Ordeal of a Traveler"'s effect as a chain to "Magic Cylinder", since "Ordeal of a Traveler" resolves first, if your opponent guesses incorrectly then the attack does not resolve and the effect of "Magic Cylinder" disappears. If multiple copies of "Ordeal of a Traveler" are active, their effects are cumulative.
Can you chain a Trigger effect to a manuall activated effect? I don't think so!
You're not listening. There is a specific point when these cards can be activated. When this specific point arrives, the trigger is tripped and you must now decide whether or not you're going to activate them. They cannot be ignition effects because they can only be activated at specific times. That time must arrive before they trigger, then you decide to activate the effect, or not.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Kyhotae said:
A regular ignition effect can only be activated at a specific time: The Main Phase.
A multi-trigger effect like Maryokutai can only be activated at a specific time when a spell card is activated.
Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force can only be activated at a specific time.
Being able to activate it only at a specific time does not make a trigger effect.
Trigger effects activate themselves, other effect-types: the player activates it.
If you wish to use an Optional Trigger effect, you must give it permission to activate itself at the first available opportunity.
Ordeal of a Traveler vs Magic CYlinder proves that ordeal of a Traveler does not have to activate immediately, you can choose when to activate, therefore it is NOT a trigger effect.
The Main Phase is not a trigger point. It is the Phase designated to activate most cards. Most cards do not have the text "This effect can only be activated in the Main Phase" because it's unnecessary. The ones that do have text like that (like "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"), that is also an optional trigger that you must decide to use or not at the appropriate trigger time. Trigger effects that have specific timing outside the Main Phase are delineated in the effect. The "Magic Cylinder" thing doesn't prove anything. Both cards have the same timing and the same Spell Speed, so the turn player gets to activate in the order that he wishes because he controls both effects. They both activate, you choose what order you want them to be on the chain.