F
franchise
Guest
when can u turn this trap card into face up postion?
Here's the problem I'm seeing:
The second one, though, states that Ordeal can be manually chained to Magic Cylinder. Which, if it worked the way its described as working in that first ruling, then Ordeal would have to go the chain before Cylinder, optional or not.
So the rulings conflict. This would make either argument valid or invalid depending on your point of view. Before we can definitely say one way or the other, we need to have these two rulings justified.
EDIT: If ordeal of a traveler is a manually activated effect, then there is no need for the the Fairy Box ruling to be worded the way it is.
When "Ordeal of a Traveler" & "Fairy Box" are both active, "Fairy Box" (mandatory) is step 1 of the chain, and "Ordeal of a Traveler" (optional) is step 2.
When you activate "Ordeal of a Traveler"'s effect as a chain to "Magic Cylinder", since "Ordeal of a Traveler" resolves first, if your opponent guesses incorrectly then the attack does not resolve and the effect of "Magic Cylinder" disappears. If multiple copies of "Ordeal of a Traveler" are active, their effects are cumulative.
The first one is worded using the SEGOC terminology, insinuating that both effects triggered simultaneously, since it's unlikely you would be able to manually activate them both at the same time.When you activate "Ordeal of a Traveler"'s effect as a chain to "Magic Cylinder", since "Ordeal of a Traveler" resolves first, if your opponent guesses incorrectly then the attack does not resolve and the effect of "Magic Cylinder" disappears. If multiple copies of "Ordeal of a Traveler" are active, their effects are cumulative.
The second one, though, states that Ordeal can be manually chained to Magic Cylinder. Which, if it worked the way its described as working in that first ruling, then Ordeal would have to go the chain before Cylinder, optional or not.
So the rulings conflict. This would make either argument valid or invalid depending on your point of view. Before we can definitely say one way or the other, we need to have these two rulings justified.
EDIT: If ordeal of a traveler is a manually activated effect, then there is no need for the the Fairy Box ruling to be worded the way it is.
I highly doubt this,DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
You are using a ruling for 2 mandatory effects to give a ruling on 1 optional and 1 mandatory (unless you have a Judge's List post to back this up that i haven't seen). The fact that Peten is an Optional Trigger should overrule any Spell Speed issues. SEGOC itself breaks chaining rules by allowing Spell Speed 1's to even be chained in the first place.
You cannot conclusively state that the Ojamamagic ruling illustrates/proves that the Peten example works as you suggest. You are not comparing 2 like effects with different Speeds.
Yes, all things equal, 2 mandatory Triggers, 1 SS1 and the other SS2, naturally the SS1 would go first, but add an Optional and i don't know. I believe it would always go last, regardless of SS. That is a huge assumption on your part.
I think it's VERY presumptuous of you to simply dismiss the "optional" vs. "mandatory" wording in the ruling, as it seems crystal clear that they are implying that both effects fire off at the same time like Triggers.
Anyway, interesting, and keep in mind, i am leaning more towards you being correct regarding Ordeal being an Ignition-like effect with Attack Response timing, not a Trigger.
No Trap cards have "ignition" effects! All ignition effects belong to monsters and are all spell speed 1! Continuous Trap cards such as Ultimate Offering have spell speed 2 effects that can be chained. You can never choose to chain an ignition effect!Jason_C said:
Continuous trap cards do have manual or user activated effects but I would not label them as "ignition" effects. All ignition effects can only be normally activated in Main Phase. Monsters with special manual effects that can be activated during the opponent's turn are "Multi-trigger" effects.
Most trap cards can be activated during any phase during either player's turn; however, many trap cards have activation requirements; i.e. their effects may only be activated during a specific game phase or game state.
Continuous Trap cards with manually activated effects present a problem here because there hasn't been a defined labeling of their effects. I can understand duelists using the terms "ignition" and "trigger" but again I caution against the use of these terms because: 1) Its obvious from reading the posts here, duelists are getting the terms confused with monster effects, 2) These terms have not been defined for Trap effects.
From the FAQ ruling regarding Ordeal of a Traveler and Fairy Box we can ascertain there are indeed mandatory event specified effects and optional event specified effects. "Event specified" is not a UDE defined term either, but I choose to use it here to avoid using the term "trigger" which has caused some confusion.
doc
Hmmm... I'm inclined to side with Novastar here. In fact, I don't believe you even have a chain here. There will be 2 distinct separate chains in time.DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Panther Warrior
This card cannot attack unless you Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field.
You cannot attack, means you cannot even declare an attack. You first tribute Peten the Dark Clown. Use its effect to special summon another. Then declare your attack and Fairy Box gets its effect.
If indeed you tribute Peten the Dark Clown and immediately declare an attack, I have 2 issues: 1) Does Peten miss its timing because the last thing to occur now is not Peten going to the Graveyard, but the declaration of attack or 2) as Novastar pointed out, the mandatory effect of Fairy Box goes first, then the optional effect of Peten is second on chain.
There is precedent for the latter option of spell speed 2 trap effect going first on chain before optional spell speed 1 monster effect. Please refer to FAQ ruling on Robbin' Goblin vs. Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer.
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John Danker
Administrator
On a side note here, and I realize this part of the discussion is a couple of pages ago...I clarified it with Kevin T. at GenCon So. Cal. The wording on Fairy Box of "When a monster attacks...." could read, "When a monster declares an attack...." So, if Fairy Box is activated in response to an attack declaration, it's effect can't also be used for that paticular attack. I'd assumed this but the card's paticular wording was worth clarification.
John Danker
Administrator
The only part you've possibly missed is a discussion about how and when it could be activated and then it's effect used. There were those who believed that Fairy Box could be activated in response to an attack and this it's effect would be triggered by that same attack....in other words as if the wording on Fairy Box were changed from, "When a monster attacks...." to, "Anytime a monster is in the process of attacking......" The second wording wouldn't be consistant with any continuious trap cards i'm aware of though. Due to that unique wording on Fairy Box though I'd promised to get clarification and did so.