Player Management? Maybe? Regarding cards.

S

slither

Alex (1981 - 2008)<br />Slithery When Wet
Simple situation.

Ok, weird thing happened this weeked, one player used Exchange. Each player exchanged cards, now at the time of returning the cards one of the player complained his card was extremelt bent.

When the player showed me the card it was in fact awesomely bent heck it was almost making a cylinder figure, I was stomped in this situation, didn't really know what to do since the match was over.

Any inputs on this?
 
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I'm not sure of the penalty, but it might be under "Unsportsman-like Conduct" and could be a Match Loss for that Match or the next one. I believe there are guidelines in the policy documents for players on how to treat property that doesn't belong to themself.
 
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Tkwiget said:
A card that bent wouldn't pass a deck check during registation. There for it must have occured afterwards.
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Which could mean in the original owner's hand.

Unless they've got proof, I don't see how they can blame the opponent.
 
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skey23 said:
I seriously doubt that when you judge Regionals or SJCs that you sit there and Deck Check EVERY player as they register for the event.....Seriously.
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Not the actual decks, just the deck sheet. I have no clue what I was thinking. =/
 
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Well I have no 100% proof of who damaged the card, but I do know the person who got "affected" and had seen his deck, and that specific card as well which wasn't bended.

But ok let's say for the heck of it there was like full proof of it, then what?
 
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slither said:
Well I have no 100% proof of who damaged the card, but I do know the person who got "affected" and had seen his deck, and that specific card as well which wasn't bended.

But ok let's say for the heck of it there was like full proof of it, then what?
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Just for the sake of discussion we need to label the players.

Player A = The player that has the bent card.
Player B = The person being accussed of bending the card.


If you have 100% proof that Player B bent Player A's card, then I would look in the penalty guidelines to see what area this situation falls under. I think it would be under "Unsportsman-like Conduct" but I'm not sure.
 
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Tkwiget said:
Just for the sake of discussion we need to label the players.

Player A = The player that has the bent card.
Player B = The person being accussed of bending the card.


If you have 100% proof that Player B bent Player A's card, then I would look in the penalty guidelines to see what area this situation falls under. I think it would be under "Unsportsman-like Conduct" but I'm not sure.
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That's what I thought as well but couldn't find a similar pattern when I went over it.
 
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Are you usually careful with your cards? If so, chances are, either

A: He did it
or
B: It was an accident

In the first case, I would think HE would be charged with unsportsman like conduct, since he was trying to cheat and get you in trouble. In the second, I'm sure they would just let you off with a warning. Accidents happen, especially with cards like Exchange, and others where you take control of an opponent's card. If the owner plays Exchange, he should know there are risks to it, and has to decided for himself if he really wants to play it. If he doesn't want to take the risk of one of his cards getting bent, then he should find a different deck to play. Unless you maliciously tried to destroy his card (which I know is not the case) it's really more his problem than yours.
 
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Fiendishly1138 said:
Are you usually careful with your cards? If so, chances are, either

A: He did it
or
B: It was an accident

In the first case, I would think HE would be charged with unsportsman like conduct, since he was trying to cheat and get you in trouble. In the second, I'm sure they would just let you off with a warning. Accidents happen, especially with cards like Exchange, and others where you take control of an opponent's card. If the owner plays Exchange, he should know there are risks to it, and has to decided for himself if he really wants to play it. If he doesn't want to take the risk of one of his cards getting bent, then he should find a different deck to play. Unless you maliciously tried to destroy his card (which I know is not the case) it's really more his problem than yours.
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That doesn't really work. What if my opponent played Exchange? There is really no way to stop your opponent from touching some of your cards in this game. It happens almost every match. Brain Control, Snatch steal, and other cards allow your opponent to control your card.

On the matter of the bent card. Even if it was an accident I still believe it would be a match loss. You have to respect your opponent and his cards. If they did it on purpose then I say a disqualification would be the right way to go. As for the person that owns the card I have no ideal what to do for them. If it isn't useable then allow a proxy for the rest of the tournament.
 
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Obviously, the first thing that has to be determined is if an offense has occured. In the description of this scenario, it appears the opponent has returned a "smoking gun". If the card was that bent when he received it via "Exchange", he should have complained that it was a marked or damaged card. Since he did not, the situation certainly looks as if he was a poor sportsman and intentional damaged the card.

Nevertheless, I would use my knowledge of the players in question, talk to surrounding players and discuss this with any floor judges involved before making a final decision. If "Exchange" player had already lost game 1 and was losing here and was known to be a disreputable player, I would strongly question whether or not he intentionally damaged the card himself to try to "Rules Lawyer" himself a match win.

In any event it appears an "Unsporting Conduct" penalty should be assessed; however, the severity would be up to the Head Judge. I would oppose any mandatory "match loss" penalty to the opponent unless you are certain he/she willfully damaged the card! And if it was willfull Vandalism, why shouldn't that warrant disqualification from tournament w/o prize and/or worse suspension from UDE tournaments. Check the suspended players list, the winner of the SJC Chicago 2006 has now been suspended for 2 years for Vandalism.

Anyways, can you guys prove to me that the user of "Exchange" didn't purposefully or accidentally bend his card and then try to blame his opponent?

How about this scenario?
Both players shuffle their decks and present them to their opponent to shuffle. Decks are shuffled and returned. 2 turns into game 1, one player points out that opponent has 1 card on the floor. He calls a judge over and asks for a Game loss to opponent.

How do you handle this player management situation?

doc
 
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I have to admit, I haven't run into the "Bent card" scenario as posted here. I certainly can see all kinds of remedies. Let's say the accused opponent says "Hey, I didn't bend your card, but if that is what you are concerned about, here take my Near Mint 1st Edition version for yours". Do we penalize him now?

John, you and I have judged enough to know that not everything is always as it seems. Unfortunately, there are duelists that go to strange extremes to win duels in other ways other than actually dueling.

doc
 
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ygo doc said:
I have to admit, I haven't run into the "Bent card" scenario as posted here. I certainly can see all kinds of remedies. Let's say the accused opponent says "Hey, I didn't bend your card, but if that is what you are concerned about, here take my Near Mint 1st Edition version for yours". Do we penalize him now?
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And this was exactly my problem.

I've judged many tournaments here now and never had something similar happened to me before.

Apparently many here agree on the similarity and penalty about the situation, also on what the sanction should be, i'm guessing the appropriate way to deal with them is along the lines of what doc has stated, leave it up to the head judge, (in this case me lol).
 
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slither said:
And this was exactly my problem.

I've judged many tournaments here now and never had something similar happened to me before.

Apparently many here agree on the similarity and penalty about the situation, also on what the sanction should be, i'm guessing the appropriate way to deal with them is along the lines of what doc has stated, leave it up to the head judge, (in this case me lol).
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It's definitely up to the Head Judge at this point! I have to admit, I like being Head Judge if I'm judging at tournaments, but for player management scenarios such as this, there are times, I'm glad when I'm just a floor judge. ;)

doc
 
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