Player Management scenario-need opinions from Judges and Players

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KrushandKill

KrushandKill

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Well, this is kinda dificult to explain. Let me try to point out my doubts:
If player AAAA as a card in his hand or face down and his oponent as a card on field and player AAAA calls me, shows only to me the card and asks "can I use this against that?", what can I do?
According to the judge's list, I would be coaching if I answer to cards in hand or face down. I've checked all that I could find.

Check here:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3085#3085

I did a copy paste, for you to read, instead of needing to go to the link above...

Re: Player Responsibility: Warning what will happen? 2005-01-11 13:58:00 <Casey9464@...>

Ok but if I as a player was to ask you as a judge " may I do this or is this move a legal move?" would that be condider favortisem or taking sides if i was to ask that to a judge?

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In a scenario like that I would not answer that question and tell the player that you can only answer a rulings interaction question. Telling a player that a particular move is legal or not gives them additional information about the game state that they would not have had otherwise.

As judges we need to be very aware of situations like this and know how to avoid giving one player an unintentional advantage.

In many of these cases, the best route to take is to not answer the question as it is truly the player's responsibility to know the cards and how they work with one another. We don't ever want to be strategists for the players :)

Take care,

Ian Estrin
Judge Manager
UDE


and...


RE: Player Responsibility: Warning what will happen? 2005-01-11 14:58:00 <Charsky, Alex>

To follow up on what Ian said:

It's perfectly acceptable for you as a judge to say something along the lines of, "Answering the question you are currently asking will require me to tell you how to play the game. Please either phrase your question such that I can answer it without coaching you, or speak to me after the match, in which case I am free offer play advise."

Most players will ask the correct questions eventually to figure out how the card interaction works. You can also follow up with the player after the game.

Another strategy, especially if you are going nowhere with the above strategy is to say "go ahead and attempt to do what you're trying to do.
I will either let you know what happens, or will stop you when you are attempting to do something illegal."

This approach is slightly less customer service friendly, but might be more appropriate at higher level tournaments (nationals, worlds) where players are expected to be more knowledgeable about the rules of the game.

Take care,

Alex Charsky
Upper Deck Entertainment





That's why I never answer to cards in hand or face down, when a player asks me if he can "play this against that card on the table"...I always remember this from the list.

On my Nationals (I was the Head Judge-hurray for me!!), a player (Paulo Ribeiro) asked me on round 5 about a card on his hand "can I play this against that?". I said I'm not is coach, I just answer to cards played. Either he plays it and I stop him if something is wrong, or he don't plays it.
He didn't played the card, but won the match.
On round 6, him again, cleaver, called me and asked "if my Spirit reaper that is removed from game, returned to my side because of a card or an effect and then it's put faced down or returned to my hand, what would happen to the reaper?" - cleaver, hum? I said "like that, reaper would be safe".
Pointless to say, that he used Return from DD on Reaper and played book of moon after.
And at the time I wasn't sure if my answer was imparcial, but I couldn't find any objection, I wasn't coaching, just answering...

So, my question is, would I be coaching a player if I answer him about the rules before he plays his card in hand?
Because I noticed that some judges do just this. I don't, but since the European Championship it's in July and my players will go there, if they find judges that "help" players more than I do, they will feel odd...


As a side note:
Last year, because I'm so straight with the rullings and tourneys, when 3 portuguese went to the National in Spain, they found a lot of situations that they thought were weird. One off then adapted and took advantage of that and won, becoming the Spanish National Champion (they said it was the Iberian Championship, though...).
But on my doubt in here, about coaching or not, I'm not too certain if I'm right or not, and I don't like the feeling.

So, if you're a player, tell me your opinion. Like: "I'm a player, and I think..."
If you're a regular judge, tell me how you normally deal with this situation.

Thx in advance.
 
With most judges, it really depends on what level tournament you're judging.

If it's a local tournament with a bunch of kids you might be a little more helpful, this is more of a learning situation. Even at that I'm not sure you to that many favors, you might get your players accustomed to just asking for help rather than learning on their own. At a regional, SJC, nationals, or other major event it's unacceptable to do anything other than these things...

1. Rule on a action performed
2. Give a game mechanic (example: "A monster's flip effect activates in the resolve effects portion of the damage step, before it goes to the graveyard if destroyed in battle"...or...."A monster effect that activates when destroyed and sent to the graveyard as a result of battle activates in the graveyard while still in the damage step.")

Other than that, in most cases you'd be considered coaching or possibly giving a player information or an advantage.

The posts you've given the link to is pretty straight foreward. While it may make you appear to be unplayer friendly, it's designed to insure fairness.
 
I would feel the same, as a player. If my opponent was asking and receiving that kind of advice, before having made a move, I would feel like there was a third party involved in the match.

On my part, that is part of the game. If I haven't made myself familiar with the cards Im using, then that is my problem. If you are using certain effects, you should be expected to be familiar with how to use them.

A judge, imo, is there to help player's understand their opponent's deck, (after they have been played, obviously :)). You can't be expected to know everything about every card used by others, but you should attempt to learn your own cards well in advance of a major official tournament.*

I would always phrase it more along the lines of Alex's first suggestion. Its just more polite, and it will generally ilicit more congenial responses in return, from players.

*I don't quite hold the same rigors to those beginning to learn the game. But those people aren't usually jumping straight into Regionals, Nationals, SJCs, and so on. And their questions almost invariably come after a mistake/problem arises, due to their ignorance of what correct procedures/mechanics/rulings are.
 
If I am playing a game in an SJC/Regional tournament and a judge does give my opponent card advice what can be done? After calling the head judge and telling him/her the sitiuation what type of penalty if any would be given? Now I am not talking about a penalty on the judge that would be left up to the TO. I haven't heard of this coming up but it can.
 
I, for one, am guilty on many occasions of giving the "yes that's legal to play" answer to players and I've since reamed myself of the issue 8^D It is a hard stance, but like mentioned before, it can easily be construed as cheating because the last thing you want to hear them say is, "Yeah, the guy lucked out and asked a question about how to play a card that the judge ruled as okay. They probably didn't know they could do that so I would have won because if the judge wasn't there they wouldn't have played that card"

Its a rough business being a judge, we want to be helpful and keep people in the game, but we also have to be fair and balanced.
 
It's absolutely normal for players in Germany to get answers to 'is this a legal move' - questions.
Every judge over here thinks the same, at long as we don't answer questions like 'how do I gain the greatest card advantage? // how can I play around effect XY on the field?' or other 'tactical' questions, it is fine to answer a players question.

If I'm not able to just answer with a 'yes // no', then I tell the player to ask the right question.

soul :cool:
 
Generally if the player asks "is this a legal move" it is fairly easy to say something along the lines of "I can't give you advice but if you try to do something that is against the rules, I will stop you".

I agree with John and others who have stated that they are more flexible with younger duelists at the weekly tournament.

I also find it is helpful to suggest to the duelist that he or she read the text of the card.

I can be challenging even to try to answer the mechanics questions without giving advice. If the player has asked a reasonable mechanics question that can be answered without helping or hindering the player, I try to give an example that uses the same mechanics but does not involve any of the cards in question.

It is a delicate rope we walk as judges and I often will error on the side of not giving too much information during the game.

I will also suggest to the player to find me after the match if they still do not understand the situation. I am able to explain it to them in more detail when they are out of the match situation.
 
Ok, maybe on a local tourment with new players it's ok to answer with a yes/no or more explanations (done that already, actually), but it was the Nationals!!!! It's suposed that every one that achieve an oportunity to play there, as the maximum knowledge of their deck/rules...Ok, I've found a couple of regions that didn't had a judge on every tourney or don't HAVE a judge, period. I'm taking care of this now, I thought the portuguese OP Manager had this controled, my mistake. I' m checking wich regions are and how can I give some advices.

But, since during the weeks before the tourney, on some portuguese forums and blogs, I was telling that the best thing for a player is to know their deck and at least all the rules of the cards they use, I wasn't expecting to find players asking me how to use their cards!!

Every time that a player asked me that, I said "sorry, I'm not your coach. I can't tell you how to play. If I do that, you gain advantage and your oponent could lose unfairly. I can only answer to played cards. You had many time before the game started to ask questions about rullings. In the end, came to me and I explain everything that you want. Now, you either play the card and I stop you if you try to do something against the rules, or you don't play the card". Many of them choosed to play another card, others played, I look, said "continue, anything more, just call me".

Many understood, agreed, and started asking questions about rullings, without showing to me cards or asking how to play. Like that, I was speaking to both players and every one around capable of hearing me, not giving any sort of advantage to any player. Speaking calm, easily, not delaying the match or the tourney.

And as a side note, fortunally I did this, cause the stress on the room and the competition were huge!! It looked like a Shonen Jump or something, never saw that until now, hapenning in Portugal. At least, in Yugioh, in Magic it's normal...If by any means, I gaved advantage to any player there, the tourney would be ruined.
Some days have passed now, and I'm still receiving comments about how great the tourney was. And untill now, no one wants to kill me (that's a first!!!)

But I just wasn't sure if my opinion of "a player must know their card rules" and "I just answer questions during a match, to cards played, or doubts in rullings without coaching" was appropriate.
I'm ok to answer a question like Paulo Rribeiro did on round 6, with a general rullings question, without showing me a card or telling me what he was thinking to do. But I just think it's not right if a player calls me, shows me a card and whispers "hey, can I kill that with this here?".
Even if a player tries to whisper to me during a match or during a stop, I step back and speak loudly "don't whisper, I'm not your friend, coach or family. Speak normally, preferably, with witnesses near by...". Already had some bad experiences with whispering in local tourneys with new players, a player could get a bad idea. I want to look as professional as I can be.

PS - After I made a very strong speach telling the players of the Nationals that I would not tolerate bending of rullings or disrepect amongst players, some one them got a bad idea of me. I don't know why...lol
During the tourney, since I was speaking freely with every one, had lunch in the middle of the players (the other judge, TO and store owner went to lunch all together amongst themselfs...), untill now, I'm receiving invitations to go to their region to judge a local tournmment and meet some players that didn't went to the Nationals. Hey, I'm a hard judge, but I'm also a cool guy and don't mind helping out when needed...lol
 
I think it's a huge misconception that as a judge you have to be a hard nosed, unfeeling person.

The vast majority of the players understand the need for being impartial and not saying anything that will give either player and advantage. It helps if in your opening announcements you state this much and quickly explain why. A lot of misconceptions and the general "feel" of what players can expect from the judges (and not expect) can be cleared up in that pre-tournament HJ announcements. It's a good idea to script your announcements out and run through them a couple of times before hand. Keep a copy on your computer if you have one for future tournaments as well.

If ALL players hear what you will and will not do then they don't think that it's just THEM that is being singled out by you not giving the answer they need. Players tend to be pretty self centered when they're competitive, they're not seeing the bigger picture. By informing them of that bigger picture as a group they then understand the reasoning behind what you are and aren't doing.

Now that you've laid down the law, as you've said, always inform them that you'd be more than happy to discuss in length what they can and can't do after the tournament and even give them tips. I often tell a player to see me after the tournement and make suggestions on a play they could have done....and as you commented having lunch with them and showing them that you're just a regular guy who really IS there to help them goes a long way to setting their viewpoint on you. You don't want to go to lunch with a half dozen of them and you don't want to spend time talking to a couple of them during a tournament or others will get the impression that you have friends that you'll favor....save your small group socializing until after the tournament is finished.

I try very hard to treat every player with respect and dignity. When called over for a ruling I always say, "Yes Sir, whats your question? ....and afterwards, "Thank you gentlemen." ....or, "Thak you for being patient while I was helping the other match." You lead by example, if you treat people with respect and dignity you can expect others to do so. If you get hot headed and lose your patience it's likely they will too.
 
agreed on everything.
you can always quote UDE's tournament policy rules:
6. Player Responsibilities
UDE players have the following responsibilities, whether they are currently involved
in a tournament or not:
"¢ Know and follow the most current and applicable TCG rules and UDE
tournament policies.
Click to expand...
 
Mmmmh...maybe I do need to update my introduction speech.
Like that, I could avoid these kind of situations of players wanting more than I'm willing to give.
Any more advices?
 
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