Questions on some oldies, but goodies...

C

CraniumX

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Seeing it's Easter and all, looks like the board here's slow, which isn't really a bad thing, but I do have a few questions about some older cards that I haven't seen any specific answers for in RONIN, and the UDE website is broke right now it seems for some reason, so here they go:

1) In the tournament I played in yesterday, I had Nobleman of Extermination played on my face down Call of the Haunted, so I chained CotH to NoE and brought back a creature, but he claimed that NoE still removed CotH from play. I tried to tell him that it wouldn't, because CotH was face-up when NoE resolved, and therefore it "fizzled" (yes, I used to play M:TG, so I use that term a lot), but he claimed it didn't, so he called the store owner over, who read the card, and sort of agreed with me, but he called over another person, who I'm not sure, but might've been a LVL 1 judge, from what I'm to understand there's only two in the state, or at least two that go there, and at least one wasn't there this week, although there was a record attendance of 24 people (seems sad, doesn't it?), but he sided with the other person, so I went ahead and removed it from play, it didn't really hurt me, and I didn't feel it was worth arguing over, especially since it was the owner that went ahead and agreed with the person he called over.
Basically, though, what I want to know, is there some official ruling somewhere I can print out to give to the guy, so he knows that it basically won't work like that? RONIN had nothing at all on NoE, and I imagine even if the UDE FAQ was working it wouldn't have anything either.

2) A simple one, maybe, that I'm just not sure of, considering some of the cards out there... does Castle of Dark Illusions permanently increase the ATK and DEF of the zombies that are on the field as long as they remain face up on the field, or do they only get 200, 400, 600, 800, and then finally just 1000 for as long as it remains face-up? The reason I'm confused, is basically the whole deal where Limiter Removal will permanently modify the ATK of machines, if they survive through the end phase, via Heavy Mech Support Platform (which I don't see any rulings for that under Limiter Removal either). The way the card itself is worded, is the first line just the flip effect, or is the whole thing? Slate Warrior effectively has two effects, so is this one like that, or a special case? I could see this one turning into a debate... it's probably another one of those BKSS rules.

3) Share the Pain makes both players tribute on resolution, right? So if it gets negated, you don't tribute one of your own creatures?



On a side note, where and when can I take my own judge's test? I'd like to at least be a level 1 judge, if not a level 2 one even, as long as that wouldn't impact my ability to play the game itself. I'm all the time trying to help other people play the game properly as it is. :)
 
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1. Correct, the effect of Nobleman of Extermination "fizzles" because the target is no longer in the correct position.

2. The increase remains if the Machine type monster survives the effect of Limiter Removal, such as Heavy Mech Support Platform. This way Jinzo would remain a 5800 attacker.

3. You tribute the monsters when Share the Pain resolves.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
1. Correct, the effect of Nobleman of Extermination "fizzles" because the target is no longer in the correct position.

2. The increase remains if the Machine type monster survives the effect of Limiter Removal, such as Heavy Mech Support Platform. This way Jinzo would remain a 5800 attacker.

3. You tribute the monsters when Share the Pain resolves.
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All answers are confirmed. And you are correct about why Nobleman of Extermination fizzles. As Nobleman of Extermination says the trap/spell must be facedown for it to be activated, chaining to an activation is something that "happens before" the Nobleman of Extermination is activated. So Nobleman of Extermination goes on the chain first, then Call of the Haunted. Call of the Haunted activates first, and then Nobleman of Extermination. Just tell them chains resolve backwards.
 
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1) That's what I did try to tell them, I even brought up the whole chain link thing, yet they still didn't believe me. I was just basically asking for something concrete and "official" I could print out and show them, since it seems like it might be tough convincing them otherwise. I had a hard enough time telling the one person how Stealth Bird worked, oye.

2) Erm, my question wasn't about Limiter, it was about Castle of Dark Illusions.

3) Thanks for confirming that, I was pretty sure but wanted to double check.
 
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Bill said:
As Nobleman of Extermination says the trap/spell must be facedown for it to be activated, chaining to an activation is something that "happens before" the Nobleman of Extermination is activated.
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Well, no on two counts. Yes on the correct answer, nobleman's effect will fizzle, but the above is not the reason.

Nobleman does not say that the card must be facedown for it to be activated. It says to destroy one facedown card. That means it must be facedown on resolution. Chaining to the activation of another card does not go into play before the activation, the card still activates, but the chained card will activate and resolve before the first card in the chain resolves.

Edit:
Unless the chained card specifically says to negate the activation. And then the prior card doesn't activate. Had to add that in before somebody else did.
:End Edit

Nobleman fizzles because when it goes to resolve, the spell/trap that was targetted during activation is no longer face up, and the player cannot destroy a face-up card using noblemans effect. Nobleman requires the card to be face-down to target during activation, and it requires it to be face-down when it resolves.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Haha sorry about that, the effect of increasing ends after the 4th turn this effect was activated. The Zombie's increase will return to it's original stats. The effect dissappears.
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FLIP: Increase the ATK and DEF of all Zombie-Type monsters by 200 points. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the ATK and DEF of Zombie-Type monsters continues to increase by 200 points during each of your Standby Phases. This effect continues until your 4th turn after the card is activated.
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Hmm... That's a little vague.

Do they mean "this effect" to be

1. the effect of the increasing during each of your standby phases (thus the boost remains), or
2. the effect of the increase during the standby phase (and therefore excluding the 200 increase during the flip effect), or
3. the overall card effect of having done the increase and thus it returns to normal ATK during the 4th turn, or
4. the increasing during your standby phase, and the "as long as this card remains face up on the field" refers to the overall boost so it goes away when this card goes away?

I can see it being interpreted each of the four ways.
 
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JOls said:
Hmm... That's a little vague.

Do they mean "this effect" to be

1. the effect of the increasing during each of your standby phases (thus the boost remains), or
2. the effect of the increase during the standby phase (and therefore excluding the 200 increase during the flip effect), or
3. the overall card effect of having done the increase and thus it returns to normal ATK during the 4th turn, or
4. the increasing during your standby phase, and the "as long as this card remains face up on the field" refers to the overall boost so it goes away when this card goes away?

I can see it being interpreted each of the four ways.
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You're right, and I would interpret it as the effect that increases Zombies 200 points per turn "stops", but the overall increase stays in place.
 
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JOls said:
Hmm... That's a little vague.

Do they mean "this effect" to be

1. the effect of the increasing during each of your standby phases (thus the boost remains), or
2. the effect of the increase during the standby phase (and therefore excluding the 200 increase during the flip effect), or
3. the overall card effect of having done the increase and thus it returns to normal ATK during the 4th turn, or
4. the increasing during your standby phase, and the "as long as this card remains face up on the field" refers to the overall boost so it goes away when this card goes away?

I can see it being interpreted each of the four ways.
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Your really making me work, haha but that's ok.

The "As long as this card remains face-up on the field..." refers you will recieve and benefit from the effect of increased attack as long as that card is face-up on the field. If Zombies are later summoned, they will benefit from the effect of increased strength. Also, the effect where it states, "This [[effect]] continues until your 4th turn after the card is activated." You will have continued increased strength until after the forth turn. Meaning it can no longer continue with the effect, and the effect of increas[ed] strength dissappears.
 
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Now actually, this is exactly the discussion I was looking for. I wouldn't be surprised to see this card pop up some more lately, and it might not be the easiest thing anymore to remove off of the field, in certain situations.

It's pretty much exactly what I was wondering... after the 4th turn it's face up on the field, do the zombies just stop getting the increase in ATK and DEF completely, or do they all get upped by 1000 for as long as it remains face up thereafter?
The wording is very vague, compared to today's cards, and there's no errata as far as I know. It's not even clear whether the increase is temporary or permanent. Amazon Archers and Limiter Removal are both permanent, so is the secondary effect of Slate Warrior, which isn't required to have been flipped for it to be affected. Is only the first line of Castle of Dark Illusions the Flip: effect, or is the entire card text?
If not, even if the flip effect itself doesn't go off, will zombies gain the other ATK and DEF increases that activate during the Standby Phase while it's face up on the field? Are those increases permanent modifiers, or just a power-up modifier of the Castle itself?

The whole reason I asked this question is because of card rulings such as the ones I listed, afterall, nowhere on Castle does it state if the effect is permanent or temporary, nor if the whole effect ends after the 5th turn, nor if just the first line is the flip effect. Deep down it's a very confusing card.

And I like it, because it has 1930 defense. Make your opponent do some math when they bump into it, then laugh when they make a funny face.
 
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When it mentions "this effect", it is talking about the effect of increasing Zombies 200 each Standby Phase.

"This effect (of increasing attack/defense by 200) continues until your 4th turn..."

Nowhere in there do I interpret it as, "The effect of increasing attack/defense by 200 will disappear after your 4th turn..."


Just like with Solar Flare Dragon, the effect that inflicts 500 damage at the End Phase of the turn, doesnt state if it is continuous or not. Is it one-shot and done, or every turn....
 
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masterwoo0 said:
When it mentions "this effect", it is talking about the effect of increasing Zombies 200 each Standby Phase.

"This effect (of increasing attack/defense by 200) continues until your 4th turn..."
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and that's how I'd interpret it, too. Structurally speaking, the english words of "this effect" would refer to the most recent effect mentioned, which would be the effect of increasing the ATK during standby phase while the card is face up. If the card is flipped face down, you would no longer get the ATK increase, but the boost would still last.

But, uh oh...what a way to abuse the card! Wait until third turn, after standby phase. Flip it face down with book of moon, and then flip it back up. Effect reset, and now your zombies get to boost again in addition to the boost they already have. Oh, hey, why not book of moon/book of tayou this card a bunch of times in a row and get a serious flip effect boost for all of your zombies! That could be seriously abused. Or what if you skip your standby phase during the 4th turn (solomon's lawbook)! Does the increase happen infinitely? This thing opens a whole can a worms!

Throw in the 920/1930 stats, and this card has a whole buncha reasons to hate it. I like it :D
 
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I haven't, which is why I started asking about this. As long as this card's been out, I'm surprised I've not seen any rulings at all on it.

By what the card would seem to say, is [Flip: "Increase the attack and defense of all zombies on the field by 200 as long as this card remains face-up on the field. Continue increasing the attack and defense of all zombies by an additional 200 during your standby phase for 4 of your turns after this card is activated as long as it remains face-up on the field. The final total remains active as long as this card remains face-up on the field."]

Of course, that's /not/ what it says though, but that's how I interpret it to mean. I think it's rather quite the interesting little card to look at now.
 
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My knee jerk response would be that it would stopped boosting the ATK even if Solmen's Lawbook were activated. Notice that Castle of Dark Illusions text (below) doesn't say that it stops in the 4th Standby Phase.

FLIP: Increase the ATK and DEF of all Zombie-Type monsters by 200 points. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the ATK and DEF of Zombie-Type monsters continues to increase by 200 points during each of your Standby Phases. This effect continues until your 4th turn after the card is activated.
 
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John Danker said:
My knee jerk response would be that it would stopped boosting the ATK even if Solmen's Lawbook were activated. Notice that Castle of Dark Illusions text (below) doesn't say that it stops in the 4th Standby Phase.

FLIP: Increase the ATK and DEF of all Zombie-Type monsters by 200 points. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the ATK and DEF of Zombie-Type monsters continues to increase by 200 points during each of your Standby Phases. This effect continues until your 4th turn after the card is activated.
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So that would mean that you would miss an increase during your Standby Phase, and at the end of your 4th turn, you no longer get an increase and are 200 short.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
So that would mean that you would miss an increase during your Standby Phase, and at the end of your 4th turn, you no longer get an increase and are 200 short.
Click to expand...

Like I said, it was a knee jerk response <shrug> That's the way I'm thinking though.
 
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Careful, I think there's a little confusion and crossover threading going on. John, I already posted immediately after my post indicating that you could do the "skip the draw phase" to get endless increase using Solomons Lawbook with the fact that it wouldn't work because it doesn't say that it ends in the standby phase but that it ends during the turn. Although it still remains outstanding as to whether you could get a continual boost by flipping the card over again and again. I think CraniumX misunderstood Johns post as a reference to CraniumX's own post. Although, his point is still valid that there aren't any rulings on the original question of what the actual effect of this card is. Is the boost permanent or just until the 4th turn. Masterwoo came up with another concept from the confusion of what John said -- and yes, I think masterwoo is right. If you skipped one of the draw phase increases, it would still stop at the 4th and you'd be 200 points short of what you could have gotten.

Whoa, talk about your spaghetti bowl!

:D

Let's try to straighten this out.

John -- We need a decision on what effect ends at the 4th TURN -- the ATK boost given by the continual increase, the continual increase, or the ATK boost given by the flip effect AND the continual increase. I think if we know the answer to that, the others should become obvious. Can you post to the judges board?
 
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