quick question regarding infinite loops

[exiledforcefreak]

I have a set cyber pheonix and I snatch steal my opponent's cyber dragon (successfully).

which of the following is true?
a)I can not flip summon my cyber phoenix
b)I can flip summon my cyber phoenix, but it would result in snatch steal's destruction (since it can't resolve)

basically I'm asking if forbiddance of actions that would lead to an infinite loop is limited to the activation of cards, and does not apply to game actions such as summoning etc.

also, would activating desert sunlight with final attack orders out/book of taiyou in that situation be a legal move?

think about this when answering the previous question:
can my OPPONENT activate book of taiyou on my face down cyber phoenix?
Lets also not forget the metamorphosis/soul exchange ruling.

 

[HorusMaster]

I would think that any game action, regardless of whether it is summoning a monster or activation of a S/T card, that causes an infinite loop would be an illegal game action. You cannot cause an infinite game loop that delays or hinders continuation of gameplay. The summon or activation would be considered illegal and as such, play should be rewound to the moment prior to summon or activation.

Since Final Attack Orders is a continous trap and Desert Sunlight is not, the situation would resolve as follows...
Desert Sunlight turns all monsters into face up defense and Final Attack would turn them into attack position but in doing so, it would also cause an infinite loop with the set Cyber Phoenix, so it would not be a legal activation and a rewind should occur....

But that is just my opinion....

 

[exiledforcefreak]

I'm inclined to agree. However, a confirmation from a few level 3s would be nice.

 

[Maruno]

I have a set cyber phoenix and I snatch steal my opponent's cyber dragon (successfully).

which of the following is true?
a)I can not flip summon my cyber phoenix
b)I can flip summon my cyber phoenix, but it would result in snatch steal's destruction (since it can't resolve)

basically I'm asking if forbiddance of actions that would lead to an infinite loop is limited to the activation of cards, and does not apply to game actions such as summoning etc.

Pole Position ruling:
"¢ You cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.

You cannot Flip Summon Cyber Phoenix.

also, would activating desert sunlight with final attack orders out/book of taiyou in that situation be a legal move?

If it's in that situation, Cyber Phoenix cannot exist in face-up Attack Position anyway, so there's no problem. If it does somehow manage to get there, it is destroyed (see below).

So you have a Snatch Steal'ed Machine and a face-down Cyber Phoenix, and there is Final Attack Orders on the field. You cannot Flip Summon Cyber Phoenix, nor can you activate any card that would flip it face-up. Your opponent probably could; in which case, Cyber Phoenix is destroyed because it is the cause of the infinite loop.

think about this when answering the previous question:
can my OPPONENT activate book of taiyou on my face down cyber phoenix?
Lets also not forget the metamorphosis/soul exchange ruling.

I would say he can. He doesn't know your face-down card would create an infinite loop, so he can certainly flip it into face-up Attack Position somehow.

Remembering the Pole Position infinite loop, I would have to say that Cyber Phoenix would be destroyed, because it is the source of the infinite loop.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm inclined to agree. However, a confirmation from a few level 3s would be nice.

Will this do for the time being?

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5477#5477

With regards to "Pole Position", you cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.

If you do this by mistake, just rewind the game to before the Summon/Set/activation occurred.

 

[darkriku19]

You cannot activate a card that would cause an infinite loop because its effect cannot resolve completely. Example #1: You activate "Snatch Steal" targeting your opponent's "Jinzo". You then equip "Jinzo" with "Amplifier". You cannot activate "Imperial Order" because it cannot resolve completely (it would negate "Snatch Steal", returning "Jinzo" to your opponent, which would negate "Imperial Order" so "Snatch Steal" would re-activate). If you activate "Imperial Order" by mistake in such a situation, flip it face-down again. Example #2: you control "Jinzo" equipped with "Amplifier" and "Skill Drain". Your opponent cannot activate "Royal Decree".-----netrep ruling

id say if the book of taiyou effect occured you would simply put cyber pheonix back face down and return book of taiyou to the owners hand

 

[exiledforcefreak]

So you have a Snatch Steal'ed Machine and a face-down Cyber Phoenix, and there is Final Attack Orders on the field. You cannot Flip Summon Cyber Phoenix, nor can you activate any card that would flip it face-up. Your opponent probably could; in which case, Cyber Phoenix is destroyed because it is the cause of the infinite loop.

The "cause" of the infinite loop is define as the card that is unable to fully resolve. It is not Cyber Phoenix that would be destroyed if my opponent uses book of taiyou on my set phoenix, but snatch steal.

 

[Maruno]

The "cause" of the infinite loop is define as the card that is unable to fully resolve. It is not Cyber Phoenix that would be destroyed if my opponent uses book of taiyou on my set phoenix, but snatch steal.

But Pole Position AND whatever Spell Card is boosting ATK BOTH cannot resolve properly, because either one works or the other. Why is Pole Position destroyed and not the ATK-boosting card?

For this example, it would be Cyber Phoenix AND Snatch Steal.

With Pole Position, I saw it that Pole Position would be destroyed because its effect causes something else to fluctuate endlessly. Cyber Phoenix causes Snatch Steal to fluctuate endlessly, and since Pole Position is destroyed instead of any other card, shouldn't Cyber Phoenix be destroyed?

There's also a similarity in that both cards provide an amount of immunity from other effects.

Perhaps it'll turn out that you have to destroy one of the cards that is involved with the loop (in this case, Cyber Phoenix, Snatch Steal or Cyber Dragon).

 

[ygo doc]

Everyone is correct in applying the infinite loops rulings regarding Pole Position to this situation. The key ruling is this:

You cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.

This ruling applies to both players, not just the owner of the set Cyber Phoenix who knows what the card is.

In the first scenario, Cyber Phoenix cannot be flipped summoned. In the second scenario, the opponent would have to reset his Desert Sunlight or Book of Taiyou. Read example 2 under Pole Position regarding the use of Ring of Destruction. If an infinite loop occurs, rewind the game to the point just before the summon/activation of effect/set caused the loop.

doc

 

[HorusMaster]

Per Netrepâ„¢ rulings regarding Pole Position:

The opponent has a face-down "Pole Position". I have "Opticlops" (1800 ATK) and "Gemini Elf" (1900 ATK) face-up on the field. I activate "Axe of Despair" (+1000 ATK) and try to equip my "Opticlops" (1800 ATK). The opponent cannot chain "Pole Position", since that would cause an infinite loop. "Pole Position" is an illegal activation. Put it back face-down.

By this ruling, the player controlling the facedown Cyber Phoenix cannot activate Desert Sunlight, Ceasefire or any other card that would flip Cyber Phoenix face up. It would be considered an "illegal" activation that would cause an infinite loop. The card that flipped Cyber face up is returned to it's position face down and the turn is rewound to the point where the player activated the card.

I have "Pole Position" and "Opticlops" (1800 ATK) face-up on the field. The opponent has a "Muka Muka" equipped with "Axe of Despair" face-up on the field with no cards in his hand. At the start of the opponent's turn, he draws a card, making "Muka Muka"s ATK 1900. An infinite loop is created by something that could not be avoided, so "Pole Position" is destroyed.

The opponent that doesn't have the facedown Cyber Phoenix did not know that playing Desert Sunlight, Ceasefire or Book of Taiyou would cause Cyber to flip faceup and cause an infinite loop. In the case that Cyber Phoenix is flipped face up by the opponent's card activation, Cyber Phoenix is destroyed because it would cause an infinite game loop.

Anyone agree with this? I think this answers all questions regarding this....

 

[HorusMaster]

Everyone is correct in applying the infinite loops rulings regarding Pole Position to this situation. The key ruling is this:

You cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.

This ruling applies to both players, not just the owner of the set Cyber Phoenix who knows what the card is.

In the first scenario, Cyber Phoenix cannot be flipped summoned. In the second scenario, the opponent would have to reset his Desert Sunlight or Book of Taiyou. Read example 2 under Pole Position regarding the use of Ring of Destruction. If an infinite loop occurs, rewind the game to the point just before the summon/activation of effect/set caused the loop.

doc

I disagree...the opponent doesn't know that the player has a set Cyber Phoenix and doesn't know that activating Desert Sunlight or Book of Taiyou would cause the infinite game loop. As such, Cyber Phoenix is destroyed when it is flipped face up because it causes the loop. Read the other rulings on Pole Position and you'll see that the card that causes the infinite loop due to a game mechanic that couldn't be helped.

 

[Maruno]

Yeah, those questions have already been answered. At the moment, though, we want to know which card to destroy in the second scenario (where the loop couldn't be avoided).

In the second scenario, the opponent would have to reset his Desert Sunlight or Book of Taiyou. Read example 2 under Pole Position regarding the use of Ring of Destruction. If an infinite loop occurs, rewind the game to the point just before the summon/activation of effect/set caused the loop.

This is incorrect, because all the cards involved are known, and neither player can activate a card knowing that a loop would be caused because of it.

In the second scenario, Cyber Phoenix is unknown by the opponent, and so is a valid target for Book of Taiyou. It's like being able to Tribute a face-down Fox Fire for a Tribute Summon.

 

[HorusMaster]

In the second scenario, Cyber Phoenix is unknown by the opponent, and so is a valid target for Book of Taiyou. It's like being able to Tribute a face-down Fox Fire for a Tribute Summon.

Agreed that it is a valid target for Book of Taiyou and since the opponent doesn't know that Cyber Phoenix is face down and that flipping it face up causes an infinite game loop, the activation of Book of Taiyou is a mechanic that couldn't be avoided. Cyber Phoenix is the card that gets destroyed.

 

[Entropy]

But Pole Position AND whatever Spell Card is boosting ATK BOTH cannot resolve properly, because either one works or the other. Why is Pole Position destroyed and not the ATK-boosting card?

My theory is that the unique card is the "source" of the loop, and therefore destroyed. We don't have another card like Pole Position, so it's the unique source. The Spell card could be anything that increases ATK, so it's not unique.

In this situation, Cyber Phoenix is unique, since we don't have another card like it. Snatch Steal could easily be replaced by Falling Down. Cyber Phoenix should be destroyed.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Okay, I've been over this and over this and there's one big problem muddying up the waters in this situation, and it's the last post in that Judges List message. That last post is contradicted by Kevin's long and elaborate statement, which for once, is very clear. So ignoring that for the moment and if we break Kevin's post to bare bones, there should be no cause for confusion.

In the event you cause an infinite loop with a card effect or summon or anything that you can manual control, you rewind to the event that created it. You do not destroy anything.

The only time you destroy anything in the case of a infinite loop, is when the actions where completely out of your control. Like a mandatory effect triggering or a draw or a forced discard, or any mechanic of the game would be when you'd be forced to destroy the cause of the loop, because mechanics or mandatory effects cannot be undone.

Foreknowledge, or lack thereof, has never had anything to do with the procedures for resolving infinite loops.


In both of EFF's examples, you would rewind the game state back to the event that created the loop, because nothing there is out of the player's control. And that's made very clear by that Judges List message.

 

[HorusMaster]

Just out of curiousity, how is it that the opponent who activates Book of Taiyou on the face down Cyber Phoenix has any control over game mechanics? The set card is unknown to the player and as such, activation of the card and the loop created by Cyber Phoenix are beyond the players control. He activated a card on an unknown set monster. When Cyber is flipped face up it creates the loop and as such, should be destroyed. Rewinding the game to the moment before activation is not proper or fair to the player who activates Book of Taiyou to flip Cyber face up. It's a game mechanic that could not be avoided as the situation was unknown to the player activating the spell card.

 

[Digital Jedi]

How is that a game mechanic? The player has complete control over what effects he activates, whether he knew that would happen or not.

Take the four examples Kevin uses to explain when Pole Position would be destroyed. In Example 5, the Draw creates the infinite loop. In Example 6, a forced discard creates it. In 7, entering the Battle Phase gets it started. In 8, the loop is created as direct result of battle mechanics.

With the exception of Example 7 (and I can't image you being forbidden from entering a phase or step, unless an effect were specifically preventing it), each instance the loop was a created by a spontaneous, uncontrollable event. In the previous 4 examples, it's voluntary card effects creating the loop and being rewound.

 

[Maruno]

Just out of curiousity, how is it that the opponent who activates Book of Taiyou on the face down Cyber Phoenix has any control over game mechanics? The set card is unknown to the player and as such, activation of the card and the loop created by Cyber Phoenix are beyond the players control. He activated a card on an unknown set monster. When Cyber is flipped face up it creates the loop and as such, should be destroyed. Rewinding the game to the moment before activation is not proper or fair to the player who activates Book of Taiyou to flip Cyber face up. It's a game mechanic that could not be avoided as the situation was unknown to the player activating the spell card.

I would tend to agree with this view, although I can see it going both ways. See below argument.

"¢ You cannot choose to Summon a monster, Set a monster, or Set or activate a Spell or Trap Card, or card effect, if it would cause an infinite loop.
"¢ If you do this by mistake, just rewind the game to before the Summon/Set/activation occurred.

You can interpret this ruling in two ways:

• 1) Neither player can cause a loop by activating a card, whether knowingly OR unknowingly. The opponent cannot activate Book of Taiyou, and if he does then time is rewound. Therefore only game mechanics (mandatory trigger, turn draw, phase change, etc.) can cause a loop (although note the Banner of Courage example that states you can still choose to enter the Battle Phase even though you know it would cause a loop).

• 2) Neither player can knowingly cause a loop by activating a card. A player CAN unknowingly cause a loop, if they don't know all the cards involved (i.e. they don't know the face-down card is Cyber Phoenix). A literal reading of the ruling (specifically the "you cannot choose" part) implies that you CAN do something if you DON'T know it would cause a loop. The second part of the ruling applies to accidentally doing something that you know would cause a loop (a slip of the mind).

Either interpretation is valid, I think, and we just need a ruling on it.

 

[darkriku19]

if there is something you can control as in using boo of taiyou on a face down cyber pheonix, even though you did not know that it was cyber pheonix and that it would cause a loop, you activate a card and i beleive the action would rewind(cyber pheonix back f/d and book of taiyou back to hand or wherever it was activated from)....if there was something uncontrollable causing the loop something would be destroyed, if there were cards activating that would make drawing during your draw phase create a loop the card that was responsible for making this situation would be destroyed as you cant control the game mechanics

 

[ygo doc]

Digital Jedi is correct. You guys are confusing effects of cards with game play.

The last example is different. Muka Muka will gain ATK due to the drawing of a card during Draw Phase. We cannot skip the Draw or Draw Phase. We cannot rewind the game to a point prior to the loop because there is no loop yet. Rather than make new rules for the game and skip Draw Phase and the Draw, we are forced to destroy the cause of the loop in this case.

It doesn't matter that the opponent did not know that the set card was Cyber Phoenix. He learned by activating his card effect, he created an infinitel loop. We must now rewind the game to a state prior to the loop and restart there. Are you guys who want to destroy Cyber Phoenix or another card, going to rule the game different if you Creature Swap or Change of Heart your face-down Cyber Phoenix to your opponent and you KNOW the face-down card and flip it with a card effect?

The ruling is the same whether the set card is known or not known in this case.

doc