Rainbow Veil

[Oceanus]

If you attack a "Dark Crusader" with "Rainbow Veil" equipped to your attacker, does Crusader lose its ATK increases?

If "D.D. Assailant" attacks "Dark Ruler Ha Des" equipped with "Rainbow Veil," will Veil apply until Assailant is considered "destroyed as a result of battle" (however still equipped with "Rainbow Veil"), therefore allowing it to not get negated long enough to remove Ha Des from play?

 

[Entropy]

[info]Steamroid

If this card attacks an opponent's monster, this card gains 500 ATK during the Damage Step only. If this card is attacked by an opponent's monster, this card loses 500 ATK during the Damage Step only.[/info]HorusMaster, where in Steamroid's effect or rulings does it say that the ATK change doesn't apply to future Damage Steps? The "only" part in the text would be there to mean that it doesn't apply to the Battle Step/End Step/Main Phases etc.

 

[HorusMaster]

[info]Steamroid

If this card attacks an opponent's monster, this card gains 500 ATK during the Damage Step only. If this card is attacked by an opponent's monster, this card loses 500 ATK during the Damage Step only.[/info]HorusMaster, where in Steamroid's effect or rulings does it say that the ATK change doesn't apply to future Damage Steps? The "only" part in the text would be there to mean that it doesn't apply to the Battle Step/End Step/Main Phases etc.

Using that logic, then what about Crystal Beast Topaz Tiger?
If this card attacks an opponent's monster, it gains 400 ATK during the Damage Step only.

Does it not get the effect next Battle Phase if it battles? I'm stating that each and every Battle Phase that Rainbow Veil is equipped to a monster would allow that monster to negate an opponent's monster card effect when it battles that monster, regardless of whether the monster was attacked the previous turn. If the opponent activates Waboku or Negate Attack and protects his monster, the next turn-if it battles the monster equipped with Rainbow Veil, THAT Battle Phase, the monster's effect would be negated.

The part everyone seems to disagree with is:
If a monster affected by "Rainbow Veil" is not destroyed by the battle, its effects remain negated for the remainder of the Battle Phase.

For this I offer this scenario:
Player A has two monsters on the field, one equipped with Rainbow Veil.
Player A attacks Yomi Ship with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil.
Player B activates Magic Cylinder.
Player A then attacks Yomi Ship with his other face up monster that is on the field.
Yomi Ship is destroyed by the monster AND it's effect is negated, thus not allowing it to destroy a monster. That is the intent of having the text, "negated for remainder of the Battle Phase."

Simon, where are you on this?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Okay, I think I get what Horus is saying.

Okay, let's have some fun here..... Senario time!!!!

Player A: Armed Samurai Ben-Kei equipped with Rainbow Veil and Mist Body.
Player B: 3 Chainsaw Insects.

Player B attacks Armed Samurai Ben-Kei with all 3 Chainsaw Insects, dealing a whopping 5700 Damage. Due to Rainbow Veil, Player A does not draw any cards.

Player A Draws for turn and equips Armed Samurai Ben-Kei with Buster Rancher. However, he also wants a little help on his side so he summons a Mystic Tomato and begins his assault. He takes out two (2) of the Chainsaw insects with Armed Samurai Ben-Kei (which, of course, negates the draw effect--again), but before he takes out the last one, he wants to suicide his tomato to bring out his Don Zaloog.

The REAL Question is, since the one remaining Chainsaw Insect was hit with Rainbow Veil equipped Ben Kei LAST TURN, but not THIS TURN, when the Tomato slams into the Chainsaw Insect, whose effect was negated LAST TURN'S Battle Phase, does Player A still get to draw a card from the Tomato attacking THIS TURN? Sure, he gets the Zaloog, which will come in handy, as he takes 1000 damage from the attack, Finishes the Chainsaw insect off with Ben Kei (draw effect, now negated), then attacks dirrectly with Ben Kei (500) and Zaloog (1400) and takes away B's last two cards for the deck out.

Now it seems that the REAL confussion y'all seem to be struggling with is what happens with the remaining Chainsaw Insect, whose efect was negated last turn's Battle Phase. Is it still negated This Turn's Battle Phase, even if it is NOT attacked by the same Rainbow Veil equipped card (yet)? The answer is a resounding no! It is negated the Battle Phase it is ATKed by a card equipped with Rainbow Veil until the end of that Battle Phase, then it reapplies, if it can. Some effects cannot reapply themselves (I'm thinking allong the lines of Skill Drain here, which is not necessarily the best card to follow, as it has issues as well). Cards like The Calculator will reapply, but Great Maju Garzett will not (at the end of the Battle Phase, when their effect is no longer negated).

 

[Digital Jedi]

I understand what Horus is trying to say, too. My problem is I don't understand how he's coming to that conclusion.

Horus, I'm afraid I'm not with you on the Topaz example, since the two don't really compare here. Topaz is always going to be the card affected by his effect when it comes time to use it. He'll be the the involved monster for each and every Damage Step that he's attacking in. Not so in the case of Rainbow Veil. The monster that your claiming will be affected on subsequent Battle Phases will now have nothing to do with any future battles. So I can't see how Topaz relates at all.

Also, I'm not following you on the Yomi Ship example, either. In your example, there is only one Battle Phase, not two. Your argument is that the effect negation goes on onto the next turn. But in your example, you only demonstrate how the effect negation lasts for a single Battle Phase.

 

[HorusMaster]

I agree that most cards with effects that can re-apply will do just that. The arguement seems to be if the effect re-applies itself after the Battle Phase and when the monster battles with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil, AGAIN next Battle Phase, will it's effect be negated once more or is it's effect only negated for the last Battle Phase. I'm stating that the negating monster effects of Rainbow Veil lasts, not as a one-time equip/negate effect, but for subsequent Battle Phases if the monster equipped with Rainbow Veil attacks the same effect monster the next turn.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Right, like I said, I do understand that. I just don't understand how your coming to that conclusion through your examples.

 

[HorusMaster]

I understand what Horus is trying to say, too. My problem is I don't understand how he's coming to that conclusion.

It's in the rulings. The effect of Rainbow Veil becomes "active" during the Battle Phase only.

Horus, I'm afraid I'm not with you on the Topaz example, since the two don't really compare here. Topaz is always going to be the card affected by his effect when it comes time to use it. He'll be the the involved monster for each and every Damage Step that he's attacking in. Not so in the case of Rainbow Veil. The monster that your claiming will be affected on subsequent Battle Phases will now have nothing to do with any future battles. So I can't see how Topaz relates at all.

Just showing how it compares to Steamroid's effect. The two monsters have specific time periods when their effect can only be used. The effect is continous during those time periods and only under those conditions. Rainbow Veil's effect is continous as long as it's on the field and only during one, particular time period- the Battle Phase. It doesn't state "during your battle phase...".

Also, I'm not following you on the Yomi Ship example, either. In your example, there is only one Battle Phase, not two. Your argument is that the effect negation goes on onto the next turn. But in your example, you only demonstrate how the effect negation lasts for a single Battle Phase.

I was just supporting the statement of how a monster's effect is still negated, even though it survives a battle with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil.

I think that there's some confusion to my stance. I'm stating that, if a monster battles with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil survives the battle, that the next Battle Phase the monster battles with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil will have it's effect negated but only during the Battle Phase. I'm not saying that monster's cannot have their effect active during the Main Phase(s) or End Phase. Only during the Battle Phase and only if it has battled with a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil. If another monster attacks it PRIOR to the battle with Rainbow Veil, it's a different story and the monster retains it's effect.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I don't think we're misunderstanding you. Like I said, your suggesting that the negation carries on for subsequent Battle Phases. My issue is I don't garner that from the text. The text sounds like a time limited effect:

If the equipped monster battles an opponent's monster, while that monster is on the field its effect(s) is negated during the Battle Phase only

The equipped monster, the opponent's monster, during "the" Battle Phase. Not all future Battle Phases. That and the ruling:

If a monster affected by "Rainbow Veil" is not destroyed by the battle, its effects remain negated for the remainder of the Battle Phase.

Again, "the" Battle Phase. I think the ability to work in any additional Battle Phases that the monster might still have survived to be around in, would be such an important ability that it would have been clearly pointed out in the rulings. But the singular use of the wording in both the rulings and the text clearly say to me that were only talking about monsters that it engaged in battle with during this, and only this, Battle Phase.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Well, good, I'm glad we're all on the same page.

And what kind of limon would you like, senior, yellow or green. ......No, I said Lemon! .......Si, limon. Yellow or green. .......No. If I wanted a lime, I would ask for a lime! I want a lemon! .......Si, comprendo! Limon! Yellow or green? .........Yelllow, please! .......Gracias, senior.

 

[Entropy]

Let me try my argument again...this time, being less terse.

I'm basically using the same logic you would, but applying it to Steamroid.

Player A attacks with Steamroid. Steamroid gains 500 ATK for that damage step. The next time Steamroid attacks, it should gain 500 ATK (for this Damage Step), plus 500 ATK (for the previous Damage Step). If Steamroid is then attacked, during this third Damage Step, it would lose 500 ATK (for this Damage Step), and gain 500 ATK (for the previous Damage Step), and gain 500 ATK (for the Damage Step before that) -- for a total of +500.

After all, where does it say that the increase/decrease only applies to this Damage Step? For the second and third battles, we're still in the Damage Step, so it should apply.

Back to reality...Yomi Ship activates in the Graveyard, so Rainbow Veil won't negate it.

 

[Oceanus]

"Card Trooper" is equipped with "Mist Body" vs. a Stratos and a "Cyber Dragon" equipped with "Rainbow Veil." Dragon attacks Trooper, and the turn ends. Trooper sends 3, goes to 1900 ATK, then attacks over Stratos for 100; this is what I'm saying.

 

[HorusMaster]

Back to reality...Yomi Ship activates in the Graveyard, so Rainbow Veil won't negate it.

Okay, bad example...try throwing in D.D Warrior Lady then that battles with Elemental Hero Avian that is equipped with Rainbow Veil. D.D Warrior Lady isn't destroyed and yet, it cannot remove Avian after Damage Calculation. Player then attacks with Card Trooper that is pumped to 1900 ATK. It battles with D.D. Warrior Lady and after Damage Calculation, D.D. Warrior Lady is sent to the graveyard and is not able to remove Card Trooper from play, as it's effect is still negated for the remainder of that Battle Phase.

Scenario B:
Same situation. Player has Avian equipped with Rainbow Veil. It attacks D.D. Warrior Lady. Player loses LPs for Damage Calculation. Both cards remain on the field. Next turn. Opponent attacks Avian with D.D. Warrior Lady. Avian is destroyed after damage calculation but D.D. Warrior cannot remove it from play as it's effect is being negated. First sentence in the rulings: Rainbow Veil's effect becomes "active" during the Battle Phase. It doesn't say which player's Battle Phase, only during "the Battle Phase." Therefore, it is a continous condition that is only active at certain times during either player's turn.

 

[Oceanus]

RE:Scenario A:
Avian can't be removed, true. However, after Damage Calculation, Warrior Lady is no longer affected by "Rainbow Veil" because it doesn't exist on the field anymore. Therefore, if the opponent attacks your Lady with Trooper next turn, Lady can remove it.

RE:Scenario B:
Avian will be destroyed, not remain on the field. Lady is not affected by any Veil any subsequent turn, game continues.

 

[Entropy]

Why did you ignore my argument about Steamroid? Do you agree that Steamroid should work that way? If no, then why not?

Okay, bad example...try throwing in D.D Warrior Lady then that battles with Elemental Hero Avian that is equipped with Rainbow Veil. D.D Warrior Lady isn't destroyed and yet, it cannot remove Avian after Damage Calculation. Player then attacks with Card Trooper that is pumped to 1900 ATK. It battles with D.D. Warrior Lady and after Damage Calculation, D.D. Warrior Lady is sent to the graveyard and is not able to remove Card Trooper from play, as it's effect is still negated for the remainder of that Battle Phase.

Irrelevant.

First, Avian is destroyed, since you said nothing about it surviving. When Avian leaves, Rainbow Veil leaves, and Rainbow Veil's effect ends.

Second, even if Avian did survive (with Mist Body), then we're still in the same Battle Phase - you mentioned nothing about changing turns. Everyone agrees that Rainbow Veil would still apply in the same Battle Phase. We're arguing about different Battle Phases.

Scenario B:
Same situation. Player has Avian equipped with Rainbow Veil. It attacks D.D. Warrior Lady. Player loses LPs for Damage Calculation. Both cards remain on the field. Next turn. Opponent attacks Avian with D.D. Warrior Lady. Avian is destroyed after damage calculation but D.D. Warrior cannot remove it from play as it's effect is being negated. First sentence in the rulings: Rainbow Veil's effect becomes "active" during the Battle Phase. It doesn't say which player's Battle Phase, only during "the Battle Phase." Therefore, it is a continous condition that is only active at certain times during either player's turn.

[info]Rainbow Veil
If the equipped monster battles an opponent's monster, while that monster is on the field its effect(s) is negated during the Battle Phase only[/info]Again, irrelevant.

D.D. Warrior Lady is battling with Avian*, so Rainbow Veil would activate again regardless of whether it negated her before or not. D.D. Warrior Lady is negated. Note that Rainbow Veil only says "...battles...", not "...attacks..." or "...is attacked by...".

*Still equipped with Rainbow Veil, and somehow surviving battle, I assume.

 

[HorusMaster]

Okay, bottomline of my arguement....a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil will negate the effects of the monster it battles with, IRREGARDLESS of whose Battle Phase they are in. Rainbow Veil becomes active during the Battle Phase and will continue to do so, even during the opponent's turn. If a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil survives a battle with another monster, who also happens to survive, the next time those two monsters battle, Rainbow Veil's effect will still negate the effects of the monster it battles, PERIOD!!

 

[Digital Jedi]

Okay, bottomline of my arguement....a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil will negate the effects of the monster it battles with, IRREGARDLESS of whose Battle Phase they are in.

I don't think anyone is contesting that part.

Rainbow Veil becomes active during the Battle Phase and will continue to do so, even during the opponent's turn.

Again, as long it's in battle, I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

If a monster equipped with Rainbow Veil survives a battle with another monster, who also happens to survive, the next time those two monsters battle, Rainbow Veil's effect will still negate the effects of the monster it battles, PERIOD!!

Okay, there seems to be some confusion here. From the way I had been understanding you (and the way I was formulating my counter point) was that you thought a monster that battled with a Rainbow Veil monster, and survived, continued to have it's effect negated on subsequent Battle Phases, EVEN IF IT DIDN'T BATTLE with the Rainbow Veil monster. Isn't that what the rest of you were thinking Horus was saying?

If all your saying is the effect applies again when in combat with same monster on another turn, well, not to be terribly terse, but... "DUH".

 

[skey23]

...D.D Warrior Lady then that battles with Elemental Hero Avian that is equipped with Rainbow Veil. D.D Warrior Lady isn't destroyed and yet, it cannot remove Avian after Damage Calculation. Player then attacks with Card Trooper that is pumped to 1900 ATK. It battles with D.D. Warrior Lady and after Damage Calculation, D.D. Warrior Lady is sent to the graveyard and is not able to remove Card Trooper from play, as it's effect is still negated for the remainder of that Battle Phase.

This scenario is 100% correct (if we assume "D.D. Warrior Lady" is in Defense Position) since both battles took place during the same Battle Phase.

Scenario B:
Same situation. Player has Avian equipped with Rainbow Veil. It attacks D.D. Warrior Lady. Player loses LPs for Damage Calculation. Both cards remain on the field. Next turn. Opponent attacks Avian with D.D. Warrior Lady. Avian is destroyed after damage calculation but D.D. Warrior cannot remove it from play as it's effect is being negated.

This scenario is also 100% correct. As soon as "D.D. Warrior Lady" declared her attack against the equipped "Avian", her effect was immediately negated (this was not any kind of 'carry-over' effect from last Battle Phase). Since cards are not sent to the Graveyard until Sub Step 6 of the Damage Step, "Avian" will remain equipped with "Rainbow Veil" up until that point, even after being deemed destroyed by Battle. Once "Avian" is sent to the Graveyard, "Rainbow Veil" will follow and its effect will no longer apply to any monsters. So, if "D.D. Warrior" attacks again (somehow), her effect will be active even though it is the same Battle Phase in which she was previously affected by "Rainbow Veil's" effect.

 

[Maruno]

I have absolutely no idea how this discussion has become so long. It seems HorusMaster is arguing one thing (that Rainbow Veil carries on negating throughout the game if it and the negated monster stay face-up on the field), and everyone else is disagreeing with him.

I certainly agree with the majority, for the reason that it's smegging obvious. Horus, man, you're stretching it too far. (And for the record, I've never before said "man" like that.)

# "Rainbow Veil's" effect starts being applied when the attack is declared. It does not start a Chain. It does not target the opponent's monster.
# Effects that activate in the Graveyard or removed zone will not be negated by "Rainbow Veil".
# If a monster affected by "Rainbow Veil" is not destroyed by the battle, its effects remain negated for the remainder of the Battle Phase.
# When "Rainbow Veil" is removed from the field or negated, the effects of the monster you battled with are no longer negated.
# If a monster equipped with "Rainbow Veil" attacks a face-down monster, when that monster is flipped face-up in the Damage Step its effects are negated.
# If a monster affected by "Rainbow Veil" is flipped face-down after the battle, its effects are no longer negated.
# While "Rainbow Veil" is equipped to a monster that is unaffected by the effects of Spell Cards, "Rainbow Veil's" effect is still applied.

There's the rulings. I've emboldened one, look. The one that refers to a SINGULAR Battle Phase.

There's no evidence at all to suggest that it applies even in all subsequent Battle Phases. Yes, it becomes active when the attack is declared, that's fine. And the effect stops being active at the end of the current Battle Phase. Also fine. But the negation doesn't become activate again at the start of the next Battle Phase (even though the rulings don't say that - Note that more importantly they don't say that the negation effect DOES become active again, negating the old monster).

Once you hit the end of the Battle Phase, there's nothing at all to worry about (no remembering which monsters were attacked, etc.). The next Battle Phase will be started completely irrespective of what happened previously. A monster equipped with Rainbow Veil, when it attacks something, that something will have its effect negated for the rest of this Battle Phase, and ONLY for THIS Battle Phase. That's what the text says.

Rainbow Veil's effect applies to everything the equipped monster attacks, but ONLY for the Battle Phase in which it was attacked.

There are many similar effects, such as the aforementioned Steamroid and Crystal Beast Topaz Tiger. Exactly the same wording, but we know their ATK boosts/losses don't stack. There's no reason at all to suspect Rainbow Veil works any differently. And indeed, it doesn't.

You might just consider dropping this, Horus, and accepting how it works. You're straining yourself to read the text slightly differently to match what you apparently want it to say.

If you have any examples of a card with similar wording that follows your thinking, please state them. When you do so, try to explain why Steamroid and Crystal Beast Topaz Tiger do NOT follow your thinking. If you have no examples, you're arguing for a precedent that goes completely opposite to the similarly-worded cards already existing, which is illogical.



EDIT: Okay, perhaps I've been misinterpreting you, Horus. Sorry.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Looking back on Horus' comments, I'm inclined to think that maybe that's not what he was saying after all. Hence me last post.

 

[Oceanus]

I don't think anybody understands what Horus is arguing.