rare metalmorph

[Lithium]

hi guys,
I activate future fusion for chimera, 2turns later he's special summoned to the field and I activate rare metalmorph and I target chimera, can I negate FF's effect with metalmorphs effect so that chimera stays on the field?

grtz

 

[skey23]

I would have to say that works just fine. I can't seem to find anything that would suggest it didn't...lol.

 

[HorusMaster]

I would have to say that works just fine. I can't seem to find anything that would suggest it didn't...lol.

Except that when Chimeratech is summoned, it destroys all the cards on the summoning player's side of the field. Rare Metalmorph, although activated, would be destroyed by Chimeratech's effect when summoned.

 

[Maruno]

Yes, but apparently Rare Metalmorph's effect of negating the first targeting Spell Card is a Continuous effect, as is the destruction effect of Future Fusion.

So Rare Metalmorph's effect disappears at the same time as Future Fusion tries to destroy the monster. It all depends on whether Rare Metalmorph still manages to negate the destruction effect.

I don't know what the answer would be, although I would lean towards saying it would, so Chimeratech Overdragon remains on the field (as much as it pains me to say that).

 

[HorusMaster]

Put the effects on a chain and I figure it works like this...

Summon Chimeratech...

Chain 1- destroy all cards on the field controlled by the summoning player

Chain 2- activate Rare Metalmorph and equip Chimeratech

Resolve

Chain 2- increase the ATK by 500 and negate one Spell card that targets monster

Chain 1- destroy all cards on the field controlled by the summoning player

So, wouldn't Rare Metalmorph's effect not fully resolve as it's in the middle of a chain resolution and be destroyed at the end of the chain resolution?

 

[cuzwbd]

doesn't the turn player retain priority to respond to the special sumon of his monster? (chimmy's effect chain link 1) with rare metalmorph or roll out, even torrential tribute or ring of destruction? (chain link 2) and resolve backwards...i would have thought that works just fine and have done it several times at tournaments with no problems....something i missed?? i could see that maybe priority was used by effect of future fusion resolving...but still if opponent does not/does respond i will still get to add link to chain either way - right? or is this like advanced ritual art - where you must respond to activation- not resolution? i am talking myself in circles ...hmmm ... should be ok to respond to sp summon - i think... dosent seem as if there are any timing issues - are there? it seems very different from wave motion cannon resolving and barrel behind door missing timing

 

[Maruno]

Put the effects on a chain and I figure it works like this...

Summon Chimeratech...

Chain 1- send all cards on the field controlled by the summoning player to the Graveyard

Chain 2- activate Rare Metalmorph and equip Chimeratech

Resolve

Chain 2- increase the ATK by 500 and negate one Spell card that targets monster

Chain 1- send all cards on the field controlled by the summoning player to the Graveyard

So, wouldn't Rare Metalmorph's effect not fully resolve as it's in the middle of a chain resolution and be destroyed at the end of the chain resolution?

Yes, Rare Metalmorph's effect would resolve fully and properly, but since it was sent to the Graveyard in Chain Link 1, the lingering effect that negates a Spell Card would disappear. It disappears at the same time Future Fusion tries to destroy Chimeratech Overdragon.

The question is whether it does negate the Spell Card's Continuous effect or not.

It has nothing to do with chaining/priority, cuzwbd.

 

[cuzwbd]

Yes, Rare Metalmorph's effect would resolve fully and properly, but since it was sent to the Graveyard in Chain Link 1, the lingering effect that negates a Spell Card would disappear. It disappears at the same time Future Fusion tries to destroy Chimeratech Overdragon.

how does link 1 resolve first?????

The question is whether it does negate the Spell Card's Continuous effect or not.

any rulings for call of haunted or premature burial then??? would they apply?

It has nothing to do with chaining/priority, cuzwbd.

hmmm - all multiple card interactions use chains.. i thought...i guess i'm missing something... :huh

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Bare with me, please, as I think out loud here and bring out the problems as I see them. The main question(s) have to do with these two parts of the two texts:

Future Fusion (Continuous Spell)
...When this card is removed from the field, destroy that monster...

Rare Metalmorph (Continuous Trap)
... Only once, negate the effect of a Spell Card that targets the monster...

Point 1: Chimeratech (being the Fusion Monster) is sending both cards from the field.

Point 2: Future Fusion's effect that destroys Chimeritech cannot be chained to, though Chimeratech's can.

So, thusfar, Chimeritech activates to destroy the two and Rare Metalmorph is chained targeting it. It resolves first and is targeting, now....

In order for it's second effect (that 1x negates a Spell Card) to work, Rare Metalmorph MUST be activated and targeting, but according to the ruling regarding Snatch Steal, it seems like it is acting as a continuous effect ("If you chain "Rare Metalmorph" to an effect like "Snatch Steal" that targets a monster, "Snatch Steal" is equipped but its effect is negated while "Rare Metalmorph" is active."), therefore, instantaniously allowing you to negate the spell card's effect.

So far, so good. Now sometimes Konami is adamant about plurals, and sometimes not (surprising since the Japanese aren't so particular with their nouns) So one question may be, does Rare Metalmorph negate ALL effects of the particular card, or just one ("... Only once, negate the effect of a Spell Card that targets the monster...")? I know this may seem a little silly, but you know how many rulings are based on the fact there is no "(s)" in the text. If it does negate the effect(s) of the Spell card, then it would be equivalent to a miniature Imperial Order and all will be right with the world.

However, if it cannot negate an effect that doesn't happen until both cards leave the field, then, even if neither use the chain, can it still negate the second effect of Future Fusion. In other words, if the entirety of the effects of Future Fusion are being negated when they leave the Field, it would be the same as Imperial Order and Premature Burial, or Royal Decree and Call of the Haunted...no problem. However, if it is "effect" focussed and not card focussed, it would not be able to negate it, as they leave the field at the same time. I guess the troubling part is that the controler of Rare Metalmorph selects when to apply the negating portion. that brings up a timing issue (to me). However, as I have looked at this and thought it through out loud, it appears that this aspect is less an issue than I originally thought.

Therefore, because Rare Metalmorph (once it has it's target) is a continuous effect that can be applied to any (applicable) Spell Card at any time, and the effect of Future Fusion that destroys it's target is also a continuous effect (not using the chain), then in all these circumstances it will be negated.

Sorry for the round about way of getting there, it just helps to think the issues and doubts through.

 

[skey23]

Point 1. Which is the biggest point of all....which I have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......again...

"CHIMERATECH" DOESN'T DESTROY ANYTHING!!!! IT NEVER HAS AND IT NEVER WILL!! "Chimeratech" SENDS all cards on your side of the field to the Graveyard.

I seriously wish people would start reading the cards and understanding them before they attempt to say how they work.


And this situation is no different than the "Cyber Phoenix"/"Chimeratech"/"Future Fusion" situation, nor is it any different than the "Call of the Haunted"/"Royal Decree"/"Heavy Storm" situation either.

And "Rare Metalmorph" doesn't apply to 'any' Spell Card at 'any' time. It applies to the VERY NEXT Spell Card that targets the monster it is 'protecting'. It's mandatory and it's continuous, so it doesn't use the chain.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3418#3418


Sometimes research can provide most, if not all, the answers you need....

 

[Digital Jedi]

Yes, Rare Metalmorph's effect would resolve fully and properly, but since it was sent to the Graveyard in Chain Link 1, the lingering effect that negates a Spell Card would disappear. It disappears at the same time Future Fusion tries to destroy Chimeratech Overdragon.

The question is whether it does negate the Spell Card's Continuous effect or not.

It has nothing to do with chaining/priority, cuzwbd.

It has everything to do with chaining. Chimeratech's summon will begin a chain link when his effect to send all cards to the Graveyard triggers. Rare Metalmorph will chain to that. Sending both to the Graveyard for the Chain Link 1 will not apply one effect and disregard the other. All cards affected by the sending of cards to the Graveyard will get their chance to apply, and most likely in the order of the controller's choosing.

 

[Maruno]

It has everything to do with chaining.

Again, it doesn't.

Chimeratech's summon will begin a chain link when his effect to send all cards to the Graveyard triggers. Rare Metalmorph will chain to that.

But of course. I know this. Someone above wrote a nice little chain link diagram explaining what happens. It's certainly possible. This, however, is not the point.

The point is that, just after Chain Link 1 resolves, Future Fusion's effect destroys the monster, AND Rare Metalmorph's Spell-cancelling effect ends. They're both continuous effects that cannot be chained to. It has nothing to do with chaining.

Sending both to the Graveyard for the Chain Link 1 will not apply one effect and disregard the other. All cards affected by the sending of cards to the Graveyard will get their chance to apply, and most likely in the order of the controller's choosing.

When did continuous effects succumb to SEGOC? No, they will both happen at the same time. The question I've asked before is, will Rare Metalmorph STILL negate Future Fusions effect, even though it's ending at the same time Future Fusion is destroying?

Is it even possible to negate this destruction? I don't know; I haven't learnt that kind of thing. You guys have. Answer that question, please.

 

[Digital Jedi]

No effects in this game ever really happen at the same time, even though an event may trigger or try to apply them all at once. Even lingering effects that all resolve at a certain phase will do so following the same principles as the SEGOC, even though they are not useing the chain.

 

[Maruno]

I won't believe that until I see a solid example.

 

[ygo doc]

No effects in this game ever really happen at the same time, even though an event may trigger or try to apply them all at once. Even lingering effects that all resolve at a certain phase will do so following the same principles as the SEGOC, even though they are not useing the chain.

No, phase effects resolve using priority, not SEGOC.

doc

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Point 1. Which is the biggest point of all....which I have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......again...

"CHIMERATECH" DOESN'T DESTROY ANYTHING!!!! IT NEVER HAS AND IT NEVER WILL!! "Chimeratech" SENDS all cards on your side of the field to the Graveyard.

I seriously wish people would start reading the cards and understanding them before they attempt to say how they work.

What.... it says "send" <walks off whistling, innocently> :-:

And "Rare Metalmorph" doesn't apply to 'any' Spell Card at 'any' time. It applies to the VERY NEXT Spell Card that targets the monster it is 'protecting'. It's mandatory and it's continuous, so it doesn't use the chain.
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3418#3418
Sometimes research can provide most, if not all, the answers you need....

Hmm, missed that one. Good to know. :huh

 

[HorusMaster]

So Chimeratech's effect of sending the cards to the graveyard is Chain Link 1. Rare Metalmorph is activated and forms Chain Link 2 and negating the next Spell Card that targets Chimeratech, not Future Fusion.
Resolve chain and you find that Chimeratech sends Rare Metalmorph and Future Fusion to the graveyard almost simutaneously and ends up destroying itself after Future Fusion is sent to the graveyard.

Any disagreements about this?

 

[Digital Jedi]

No, phase effects resolve using priority, not SEGOC.

doc

I said they use the same principles of the SEGOC, which is based on piority. Not the SEGOC itself.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I won't believe that until I see a solid example.

Well, as far as lingering effects are concerned:

"Last Turn" as a chain to "Change of Heart": Suppose the turn player activates "Change of Heart" and the opponent chains "Last Turn", then the opponent selects the monster targeted by "Change of Heart" for "Last Turn" (since it's still on his side of the field, as "Change of Heart" hasn't resolved yet). Then "Change of Heart" resolves and the turn player gains control of the monster, then Special Summons for "Last Turn". There is no special Battle Phase. Assuming that the opponent somehow survives the standard Battle Phase, during the End Phase, the turn player has priority to activate and resolve an effect. If the turn player activates and resolves "Change of Heart", then the monster goes back to the opponent and (assuming nothing else has happened), both players each have 1 monster and the result is a DRAW. If the turn player passes priority to the opponent, the opponent can activate and resolve the effect of "Last Turn" before "Change of Heart", and in this case the turn player still has 2 monsters and the opponent has zero, so the turn player would win. If the turn player passed priority to the opponent and the opponent passes it back, the turn player MUST activate and resolve an effect, so the effect of "Change of Heart" would expire and both players would have 1 monster each, resulting in a DRAW.

If the turn player Special Summons "Twin-Headed Behemoth" and it is destroyed during the special Battle Phase, during the End Phase the turn player has priority to activate and resolve an effect first, so he can choose the effect of "Twin-Headed Behemoth" and Special Summon it to the field before the victory check of "Last Turn".​

 

[skey23]

So Chimeratech's effect of sending the cards to the graveyard is Chain Link 1. Rare Metalmorph is activated and forms Chain Link 2 and negating the next Spell Card that targets Chimeratech, not Future Fusion.
Resolve chain and you find that Chimeratech sends Rare Metalmorph and Future Fusion to the graveyard almost simutaneously and ends up destroying itself after Future Fusion is sent to the graveyard.

Any disagreements about this?

Yes. The ruling for "Rare Metalmorph" and "Snatch Steal" should answer any issues about cards that have already targeted the monster and cards that continuously target the monster. "Snatch Steal" has already targeted the monster by the time "Rare Metalmorph" resolves, but since it continually targets the monster, "Rare Metalmorph" will kick in and negate "Snatch Steal" because it is the 'next card' to target that monster.

As soon as "Chimeratech" hits the field, "Future Fusion" IMMEDIATELY begins targeting it. This is a continuous effect. This happens before "Chimeratech's" effect will trigger. "Chimeratech" triggers. You chain "Rare Metalmorph". "Rare Metalmorph" resolves and immediately begins looking for the next Spell Card that targets "Chimeratech". This is continuous. At this same time, the continuously targeting effect of "Future Fusion" is still active. "Rare Metalmorph" sees this and negates "Future Fusion". This all happens BEFORE "Chimeratech's" effect resolves, exactly like it does with "Cyber Phoenix". Now, "Chimeratech's" effect resolves and sends all cards on your side of the field to the Graveyard. Since "Future Fusion" was being negated by "Rare Metalmorph" when it left the field, it's effect will not happen and "Chimeratech" will live.