Relinquished vs Slate Warrior

[ManEaterBug]

Player A has a Relinquished equipped with a Giant Orc so Relinquished's attack is 2200

Player B has a Slate Warrior

Player A attacks Slate Warrior with Relinquished. Slate Warrior is destroyed. Slate warrior's effect reduces Relinquished's attack by 500 to 1700.

Player B summons a Gemini Elf and attacks Relinquished. Relinquished's equipped Giant Orc is destroyed.

Player A uses Relinquished to absorb Player B's Gemini Elf. Is Relinquished's attack 1900 or 1400 because of the effect of the previously destroyed Slate Warrior?

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Well I'll put it this way, and I realise I'm pushing my luck here.

Archfiend Soldiers ATK is 1900.
Slate Warrior attacks him (at 1900 ATK) and the controller of Archfiend plays Waboku.
Slate Warrior dies and makes Archfieind 1400.
Archfiend is equipped with Axe and becomes 2400.

So that would read: 1900-500=1400+1000=2400

No argument.

Now take that same scenario with Relinquished in stead of Archfiend Soldier

Relinquished's ATK is 2200 (he's equipped with Giant Orc.)
Slate Warrior attacks him (at 1900 ATK).
Slate Warrior dies and makes Relinquished 1700.
Giant Orc is MST'd and Relinquished's ATK becomes 0.
Relinquished is equipped with Axe and becomes 500?????

So that woudl read: 2200-500=1700-1700=0+1000=500????

Im sorry. I just dont get it.

As I stated, Slate Warrior doesn't continuoly comboing the monster it decreased everytime an increase and descrease occurs, just as long as the monster is face-up on the field, it's attack will be decreased by 500 points and nothing more.

So in your example, when Relinquished goes down to 0 ATK, the effect of Slate Warrior is still in effect but it had already done the 500 decrease, so if Axe of Despair is later equipped, Relinquished will have an attack of 1000 points.

 

[Digital Jedi]

StRiKe_NiNjA, are we agreeing and not realising it?

I got the impression from earlier posts that they were saying that the modifier from Slate Warrior continously checks:

It may "become" the ATK/DEF, but that is then further altered by other modifiers (such as "Axe of Despair"). Since "Slate Warrior"'s effect remains on the monster for as long as that monster stays on the field, "Relinquished" would become 1400 if he had "Gemini Elf" attached.

And that's what I was disagreeing with.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

The main problem I have is the idea Slate Warrior's effect is a lingering effect. I don't believe it is. It subtract's 500 off the ATK once it dies by battle and everything else is added or subtracted from there. Can any one give me some evidence that Slate Warrior is indeed a continous or "lingering" effect?

The effect is much like Dark Jeroid, as long as that monster is face-up on the field, it's attack will remain decreased by whatever stated amount.

To be honest, I don't think I have a logical explanation of why it lingers, only that it closely relates to Dark Jeroid, and that it would be ruled the same way as Dark Jeroid.

Someone of more knowledge will come by and answer this. Sorry if I can't exaplin why.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

StRiKe_NiNjA, are we agreeing and not realising it?

I got the impression from earlier posts that they were saying that the modifier from Slate Warrior continously checks:And that's what I was disagreeing with.

True, we are agreeing with 1 another and I didn't realize it. LoL

But I disagree wit densetsu_x as well.

 

[anthonyj]

You are treating the ATK going down to 0 as some kind of cap off point. We are dealing with ATK modifiers. This also isn't a matter of Time-Stamping it is a matter of "MODIFIERS". If I equip Magical Scientist with Shooting Star Bow - Ceal obviously it will have an ATK of 0. If I then equip it with 2 Axe of Despair it doesn't care in what order the Axes and the Bow were equipped. He will end up with an ATK of 1300 and may attack life points directly. These are modifiers of his attack just like Slate Warriors effect is an ATK modifier. It is going to reduce the attack by 500 just like Shooting Star Bow - Ceal reduces the attack by 1000. It doesn't matter what the attack goes down to or up to in subsequent rounds it still has a modifier that has been applied to it.

 

[JOls]

I have to go back to what I originally aGreed with mad:, I hate arguing against my original point). It isn't necessarily a continuous effect, it is a state. Take whatever the ATK is and decrease it by 500. I don't think the caps apply inbetween modifiers. So Relinquished is -500 ATK after the equipped monster is destroyed, but if you try to ATK with Relinquished, it is "considered to be 0", so a -500 ATK Relinquished could destroy a 0 ATK somethingelse in attack mode (and destroying itself in the process). You would add in all of the modifiers, including modifiers from prior states (lingering effects) THEN consider it 0 if it is below 0.

What makes me believe it is a lingering effect, at least now, is that all of the other cards that modify ATK/DEF give some indication as to when the state ends. For equipment, the ATK/DEF are "a card equipped with this" and so if it is no longer equipped, it ends. Likewise, quick play modifiers usually say "until the end of this turn". But field spells do not usually say "while on the field", but it is implied in the fact that if the field spell is removed from the field and no other field spells are in play, the field resets to its original state (or something like that was said in the manual). Since Slate Warrior does not say when its effect ends, the only ruling that applies is that "states" are reset when cards leave the field/are flipped face down.

So in my RFS example, RFS would still be 0.

 

[Digital Jedi]

You are treating the ATK going down to 0 as some kind of cap off point. We are dealing with ATK modifiers. This also isn't a matter of Time-Stamping it is a matter of "MODIFIERS". If I equip Magical Scientist with Shooting Star Bow - Ceal obviously it will have an ATK of 0. If I then equip it with 2 Axe of Despair it doesn't care in what order the Axes and the Bow were equipped. He will end up with an ATK of 1300 and may attack life points directly. These are modifiers of his attack just like Slate Warriors effect is an ATK modifier. It is going to reduce the attack by 500 just like Shooting Star Bow - Ceal reduces the attack by 1000. It doesn't matter what the attack goes down to or up to in subsequent rounds it still has a modifier that has been applied to it.

I'm not sure what your getting at, but the three cards you mention are all equips and therfore continuously modify the ATk of an equip monster. Shooting Star Bow - Ceal decreases the current ATK, and it's continuously checking. This is one of those instances where the ATK does go below a negative number.

Rulings
"Shooting Star Bow - Ceal" decreases the current ATK. So if "Injection Fairy Lily" is equipped with "Shooting Star Bow - Ceal" and activates her effect, her ATK is 2400 ((400 - 1000) + 3000 = 2400).

So even though she increses her ATK in the Damage Step SSB - C still checks it.

Equip the Star Bow to scientist and it's ATK is 0 (but -700 as far as Star Bow is concerned.) Equip one Axe and it goes up (-700 + 1000) to 300. Equip another and it goes to 1300.

Slate Warrior is not an equip. He is not a continuous effect. His effect triggers when he dies from battle. And in the example mention earlier Relinquished didn't even go to zero through Slate Warrior's effect. He went to zero because the equiped monster was destroyed. Once he went to zero his attack was 0 and not -500, which is what his ATK would have to be in order for an equiped Gemini Elf to make his ATk 1400. Again I say, it's NOT a continuous modifier. It subtract the ATK once and any other modifier is added to or subtracted from there on out.

 

[John Danker]

I posted the question to the judge's board. It's a good question. I appreciate everyone's input on the subject.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

If it's just a trigger effect, then why doesn't it go away once the chain finishes resolving?

It's a trigger activation, but once it resolves it is continuously applied.

 

[OKShadow]

Just put it this way to avoid confusion.

Regarding Slate Warrior's decrease (and Dark Jeroid and similar monsters)... apply these modifiers AFTER all other card modifiers that must be on field. Jeroid and Slate execute a "condition" that the monsters' ATK goes down. Apply all other card modifiers first and THEN apply the condition. Does that help any?

 

[Digital Jedi]

If it's just a trigger effect, then why doesn't it go away once the chain finishes resolving?

It's a trigger activation, but once it resolves it is continuously applied.

We'll for one thing I think the mistake being made here is similar to a mistake made often with Creature Swap.

Some people believe that the reason Creature Swap doesn't return the monster at the end of the turn is because its a permanent modifier or a lingering effect. But that just isn't the case either. The only reason the monster doesn't return to it's previous controller's side of the field is because the effect of the card doesn't say it returns. Change of Heart and Mind Control would work the same way if the effect didn't say "till the end of the turn". The monster would just stay where it was.

Similarly, comparing Slate Warrior to other ATK/DEF modifiers is unfair because most ATK modifiers have an additional effect writen in ther card texts that specifically doesn't allow the ATK/DEF modificatuon to remain.

Rush Recklessly says "during the turn this card is activated"
Reinforcements says "during the turn this card is activated"
Limiter Removals says "destroy all Monster Cards that were affected by this effect. " But if you can keep them from dying (Heavy Mech Support) the doubled ATK remains.

My point is that modifiers almost always have to state how long they are to last before the can go away. They just don't go away on thier own. If they don't state it in thier card text then they remain. This is not a continuous effect or a "lingering" effect just a one time change in the monsters state. This is why people where so confused with Mind Control because Mind Control didn't clearly state how long the "paralyzing" effect of not being able to tribute or attack lasted. And a lot of us hoped that it was a permanent state, when it was really just bad translating.

 

[anthonyj]

I see your line of reasoning. I will be interested to see if the Judge List response matches how most areas have played the card (lingering modifier).

By the same logic would you assume that Relinquished only takes on the ATK and DEF of the equipped monster at the time of being equipped? If so wouldn't Megamorph permanently drop him back to 0?

 

[Raigekick]

I was under the assumption that "Megamorph" will be useless when used at TER or "Relinquished" because the resulting ATK will be 0, regardless on who has higher Life Points.

 

[anthonyj]

Raigeki[/ycard]ck]I was under the assumption that "Megamorph" will be useless when used at TER or "Relinquished" because the resulting ATK will be 0, regardless on who has higher Life Points.

I've always been told that Megamorph would only modify the Original ATK of Relinquished/TER (which would remain 0) and then the effect of Relinquished/TER would raise it back to that of the equipped monster.

 

[Raigekick]

I've always been told that Megamorph would only modify the Original ATK of Relinquished/TER (which would remain 0) and then the effect of Relinquished/TER would raise it back to that of the equipped monster.

I see it like this: It is the effect of TER or "relinquised" that makes (not increase) his ATK the same as the equiped monster. Since this is not considered an increase effect, but rather a change effect, it will not be added on top of "Megamorph". TER and "Relinquised"'s equiped monster does not act like Equip Spell Cards with stat modifiers.

 

[novastar]

Player A has a Relinquished equipped with a Giant Orc so Relinquished's attack is 2200

Player B has a Slate Warrior

Player A attacks Slate Warrior with Relinquished. Slate Warrior is destroyed. Slate warrior's effect reduces Relinquished's attack by 500 to 1700.

Player B summons a Gemini Elf and attacks Relinquished. Relinquished's equipped Giant Orc is destroyed.

Player A uses Relinquished to absorb Player B's Gemini Elf. Is Relinquished's attack 1900 or 1400 because of the effect of the previously destroyed Slate Warrior?

Relinquished's effect always creates a dependancy. It is always applied first when determining the final ATK/DEF numbers, all modifiers are applied after it in Timestamp order.

Slate Warrior's effect is a Trigger that brings a Continuous Effect into play, and it last for as long as the monster is face-up... similar to Rope of Life's ATK modifier.

So, long story short:

Relinquished destroys Slate Warrior and its ATK/DEF is reduced by 500. When you then get rid of Giant Orc, and Equip Reliquished with Gemini Elf, you simply give Gemini Elf's ATK/DEF first, and then apply Slate Warrior's effect and reduce the ATK/DEF by 500.

In the end, Relinquished equipped with Gemini Elf will now be at 1400 ATK/400 DEF.

Everytime you re-equip Relinquished, you apply it's effect first, then Slate Warrior's.

Hope that helps

 

[Digital Jedi]

Slate Warrior's effect is a Trigger that brings a Continuous Effect into play, and it last for as long as the monster is face-up... similar to Rope of Life's ATK modifier.
Bold added

And that's where I fundamentaly disagree. I may end up bitin' the bullet on this one. Lord knows I bit it for Ultimate Offering (wow, that dead horse must be mush by now. ) I don't see how Relinquished's ATK can be reduced by 500 once by Slate Warrior and then when the ATK goes to 0 Relinquished "remembers" that it's ATK was reduced and has to be reduced again, or that it's ATK is at -500 for a non-continous modifier. Either explanation doesn't seem to fit the mechanics of the game. Oh well, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. But do you follow my line of reasoning here? If officialy ruled differently from that, I'll accept it. But the way the card is worded, if they do rule differently, it would strike me a a B.K.S.S. (SMACK***Digital Jedi is struck by a B.K.S.S. The horror!)

Speaking of official, anyone see the new rulings posted for Divine Wrath? I got this from the Judges Forum:http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4311

Judges,



New updates have been made to the card rulings. The updates are below
and you can also view them in the Gameplay FAQ section of the official
website.



Enjoy.



Dan Scheidegger

Jr. Game Designer

Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D

Upper Deck Entertainment



Magic Reflector . . .The Creator. . .Heavy Mech Support Platform. . .Serial Spell . . . Triangle Ecstasy Spark . . .Monster Reincarnation . . .Rare Metalmorph . . .Pikeru's Circle of Enchantment . . .Astral Barrier . . .Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys . . .

Divine Wrath



[The rulings for this card have been restructured so they are easier to
understand. Many new rulings are also included. Please check the
official website to view the complete rulings.]

And here they are:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Divine Wrath[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You can activate the effect of "Divine Wrath" to a Flip Effect, Ignition Effect, Trigger Effect, or Multi-Trigger Effect. But not to a Continuous Effect. This is because Continuous Effects cannot be chained to.

"Divine Wrath" is NOT a card that targets, so "Divine Wrath" may be used against Dragon-Type monsters while "King Dragun" or "Lord of D." is on the field.

You can activate the effect of "Divine Wrath" against an effect monster's effect that happens anywhere: on the field, in the hand, in the Graveyard, or removed from play.

You must chain "Divine Wrath" to an effect directly preceeding it in the chain. For example, if "Airknight Parshath" equipped with "Cestus of Dagla" attacks a Defense Position monster, "Airknight Parshath" inflicts damage to the opponent's Life Points during damage calculation. Then, during effect resolution, there are 2 simultaneous Trigger Effects that the controller places in a chain however he likes. If the effect of "Airknight Parshath" is Step 1 and "Cestus of Dagla" is Step 2, the opponent cannot chain "Divine Wrath". However, if "Cestus of Dagla" is Step 1 and "Airknight Parshath" is Step 2, "Divine Wrath" can be chained. In this case, the effect of "Airknight Parshath" that allows the controller to draw a card is negated, "Airknight Parshath" is destroyed, and the effect of "Cestus of Dagla" Disappears before it resolves.

Another example: if "D.D. Warrior Lady" attacks a face-down "Morphing Jar", and activates her effect to remove both cards from play, "D.D. Warrior Lady" is Step 1 because she is controlled by the turn player, and "Morphing Jar" is Step 2. So "Divine Wrath" can be chained to the effect of "Morphing Jar" to negate its effect, but not to the effect of "D.D. Warrior Lady" to negate her effect.

You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the effect of "The Creator" (Ignition Effect), "Fox Fire" when it is Special Summoned (Trigger Effect), "Strike Ninja" (Multi-Trigger Effect), and "Homunculus the Alchemic Being" (Ignition Effect).

You can activate "Divine Wrath" in a chain to a Trigger Effect that activates when the Effect Monster is Summoned such as "Breaker the Magical Warrior", "Dark Magician of Chaos", or "Marauding Captain". The opponent must declare the activation of "Marauding Captain"'s effect before "Divine Wrath" can be activated. In this case, the monster that would have been Special Summoned remains in the opponent's hand.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" during the Damage Step because it is a Counter-Trap, so you may activate it to negate the effect of "D. D. Warrior Lady", "Reflect Bounder", "Injection Fairy Lily", "D. D. Crazy Beast", "Dark Paladin", or "Mystical Knight of Jackal".

If you activate "Divine Wrath" during the Damage Step to destroy the attacking monster or the monster being attacked, the monster is destroyed. No replay occurs because a replay can only happen during the Battle Step. If damage calculation has not been performed yet, it is not performed.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" against "Sasuke Samurai" or "Mystic Swordsman LV2" when they attack a face-down Defense Position monster.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" to negate either effect of "Don Zaloog" and to negate the effect of "Airknight Parshath" that allows its controller to draw a card.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" to negate an effect that activates in the Graveyard, such as "Witch of the Black Forest", "Mystic Tomato", "Despair from the Dark", "Night Assailant", "Electric Snake", and "Sangan".

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when the opponent discards "Kuriboh" from his / her hand to negate the effect of "Kuriboh" and when a "Night Assailant" is discarded to negate the effect of returning a Flip Effect monster to the owner's hand.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Exiled Force", "Red-Eyes B. Chick", or "Paladin of White Dragon" is Tributed for its own effect.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Dark Necrofear" activates its effect in the Graveyard during the End Phase, and since a monster in the Graveyard cannot be destroyed, "Dark Necrofear" is not destroyed by a card effect, so its effect does not activate again.

You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the effect of "King Dragun" that Special summons a Dragon-Type monster.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when the opponent uses "Relinquished"'s effect to equip itself with a monster, or when "Relinquished"'s effect inflicts damage.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when a Spirit Monster is returned to the owner's hand by its own effect, and the Spirit Monster will be destroyed and sent to the Graveyard.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when the effect of "Helpoemer" activates in the Graveyard, and the effect of "Helpoemer" will not activate again.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" activate their effects in the Graveyard, and their effects are negated and they are not Special Summoned; but because they cannot be "destroyed" while in the Graveyard, they are not destroyed by a card effect so their effect will not activate again.

You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of "Peten the Dark Clown", and the effect of "Peten the Dark Clown" will not resolve (however, the "Peten the Dark Clown" that was removed from play remains out of play).

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when the effect of "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" activates that allows it to attack a second time.

You cannot chain "Divine Wrath" to Continuous Effects such as: "Perfect Machine King", "Raging Flame Sprite" (either effect), "Jinzo", "Fire Princess", "Mad Sword Beast", "Hayabusa Knight", "Cat's Ear Tribe", "Amazoness Swords Woman", "Harpie Lady 3", "Fusilier Dragon the Dual-Mode Beast", "The Fiend Megacyber", "Blade Knight" (either effect), "Patrician of Darkness", or monsters like "Element Saurus" that gain ATK continuously.

You cannot activate "Divine Wrath" when "Giant Orc", "Goblin Attack Force", or "Spear Dragon" changes to Defense Position because these are considered Continuous Effects.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Lava Golem" does damage to your Life Points, but you cannot activate it when "Lava Golem" is Special Summoned.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when any Union Monster activates its effect to equip itself to another monster, because that is an Ignition Effect. However, you cannot activate "Divine Wrath" when a Union Monster Special Summons itself back as a monster, because that is an effect of an Equip Spell Card.

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when a "LV" monster is sent to the Graveyard to Special Summon the next level version (an Ignition Effect), and "d="RDS-EN050"]Divine Wrath[/ycard]" will negate that effect, even though it cannot destroy the "LV" monster because it is already in the Graveyard.

After you negate the effect of "Sinister Serpent" with "Divine Wrath", your opponent can activate the effect of "Sinister Serpent" again to return it to his hand, even during the same Standby Phase.[/font]

 

[novastar]

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" activate their effects in the Graveyard, and their effects are negated and they are not Special Summoned; but because they cannot be "destroyed" while in the Graveyard, they are not destroyed by a card effect so their effect will not activate again.

HOLY SMOKES!!!!

Am i reading that right? or am i hallucinating?

Finally some mechanics... maybe things are changing... let cross our fingers

Kudos to whoever created this ruling .....

 

[novastar]

And that's where I fundamentaly disagree. I may end up bitin' the bullet on this one. Lord knows I bit it for Ultimate Offering (wow, that dead horse must be mush by now. ) I don't see how Relinquished's ATK can be reduced by 500 once by Slate Warrior and then when the ATK goes to 0 Relinquished "remembers" that it's ATK was reduced and has to be reduced again, or that it's ATK is at -500 for a non-continous modifier. Either explanation doesn't seem to fit the mechanics of the game. Oh well, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. But do you follow my line of Reasoning here? If officialy ruled differently from that, I'll accept it. But the way the card is worded, if they do rule differently, it would strike me a a B.K.S.S. (SMACK***Digital Jedi is struck by a B.K.S.S. The horror!)

Let me ask you this...

If Relinquished were reborned with Rope of Life and he were to unequip and re-equip another monster... would he still recieve the 800 ATK boost from Rope of Life?

If you answer yes, then you just proved that he would still recieve the reduction from Slate Warrior.

Hope that helps

 

[ManEaterBug]

Ack! I come back to check on my question and it's three pages long. Thanks for all the replies.