Relinquished

F

Fury

New Member
Just to get his straight:
The selected monster is treated as a Monster Card when it is sent to the Graveyard, so the effects of "Sangan" or "Witch of the Black Forest" would activate, but the effect of "Mystic Tomato" would not, since it was not destroyed as a result of battle.

If "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is destroyed while it is not a Monster Card, such as when it is equipped to "Relinquished" or "Sword Hunter", its effect does not activate and it is not Special Summoned

Since the 2 rulings seem to contradict each other, I guess there are 2 different scenarios for each. One probably is when the card is destroyed by Relinquished's own effect and the other is something like using Heavy Storm.

So which is which?
 
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The deeper you get into rulings, the more you realize that very subtle wording differences mean a great deal, often times that difference is hard to spot even for those who have been judging the game since it was introduced.

As for BKSS,(which doesn't apply in this situation) while we sometimes get tired of hearing it, the designer of the game sometimes makes interacting effects that don't follow the mechanics and typical rules of the game (take for instance Archfiend effects) We'd love to apply standard game mechanics to them but that's not what the designer had in mind when they made the card so we do what we must to make the game play anyway....it's part of the game I'm afraid and we must live with it.
 
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The effect to special summon itself activates in the Graveyard. However, if it's an equip card first, it doesn't see that it was destroyed (since it wasn't a monster). So it just wakes up there, not knowing what happened nor how it got there.

Now if the text said "destroyed and sent to the Graveyard" (like the way Guardian Tryce does), then we wouldn't be having this discussion since it has more conditions to fulfil for the effect to activate.
 
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You're right, it's effect doesn't activate until it's in your graveyard during your next standby phase....however, the conditions for it's effect to trigger are determined while it's still on the field....notice the distinction between the two, activate and trigger, again, subtle term differences that mean a great deal.

Without the conditions being correct on the field (SPon being a monster card and not a equip spell card) when SPoN is destroyed, it's effect can't activate during your next standby phase. I'm not sure how else we can explain it....but we're trying!
 
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Hitchhiking Ensui

Both cards ("Sangan", and "Phoenix of Nyphthys") would know if they're destroyed or not. :p And Sacred Phoenix activates in the Graveyard after being Destroyed, it's no different to Sangan except for the fact it activates later.

John, both monsters' conditions for it's effect to trigger are determined while it's still on the field, and yet here we are with one effect not working, and one working.
 
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I understand your confusion on this one and I have to appologize, I don't know how else to explain this to you. We do know what the ruling is and I suppose that's ultimately the important part....though we do like to help everyone to understand those rulings here on COG as best we can because doing so improves everyone's understanding and enjoyment of the game in general.

I'm sorry we couldn't make it clear for you.
 
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1) Sangan doesn't care if it's destroyed, but part of it's condition is that it has to end up in the Graveyard. The Phoenix has no such condition.

2) When it's an equip card it misses the timing part of the "if it's destroyed". Why? Because as an equip card it has no such effect. Yeah it might have been destroyed but at that moment when it matters, the Phoenix is nothing more than United We Stand or Luster Dragon #2 (aka effectless).

That's the distinction that you don't want to accept. It's a very subtle difference in the text between it and other monsters. If you don't want to accept that fact than really, I don't have any other way of trying to explain it to you.
 
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I'm going to have to continue to decline on your evidence though. I've tried convincing you as well, but you continue to persist there's a technical reason Phoenix doesn't get its effect. I gave it some more thought, and tried to even defend the idea once, but you guys just couldn't convince my Rulings guy, Ensui, and if you can't convince him, you just can't convince me. So we're at departing crossroads. Carry on.
 
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Actually folks, this actually IS a BKSS. As much as I hate to say it.

"Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" doesn't say, in it's card text, that is must be destroyed while it's a monster. It simply states that it must be destroyed...period. So, why then does it not work when destroyed while equipped to "Relinquished"/"Thousand-Eyes Restrict"? Because that's how Konami Ruled it.

The fact it doesn't state "and go to the Graveyard" is actually irrelevant in this case. Yes, it's true that pretty much all other monsters that say "If/When this card is sent/destroyed" and mentions the Graveyard all work just fine if they were equipped to "Relinquished"/"Thousand-Eyes Restrict". But that's because that's how Konami Ruled them.

"Vampire Lord" suffers from the same affliction as "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" if equipped to "Relinquished"/"Thousand-Eyes Restrict". His text doesn't say he has to be destroyed as a monster, and his text clearly states it must go to your Graveyard. So why doesn't he work like all the others do? Because that's how Konami ruled it.

Sometimes things in this game don't make much sense. Sometimes 2 cards with seemingly identical text and effects will work completely different from each other. This could be from bad translations, or it could simply be that's just how Konami wanted it.

People just need to take the rulings as they are and apply them accordingly.
 
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This is one of the things I was trying to point out earlier. Phoenix and Sangan are not the same effect. Sangan looks to see if it has gone "from the field to the Graveyard." Phoenix looks to see if "this card was destroyed by a card effect."

As I said, they look the same, but are mechanically different. Sangan has different defined parameters then Phoenix. It has to be on the field before going to the Grave. And it can trigger regardless of what sent it there. Effect, Tribute, Battle. Anything that sends it there, will trigger it.

Phoenix, on the other hand, has the destruction by a card effect requirement. No location specific activation requirement.

It doesn't go to explain the "how" of the rulings as much as it shows there's a distinction. Think about other distinctive effects in Yu-Gi-Oh!, like their NOMI ident text. The sentences the distinguish the two grammatically say the same thing, but because they are formatted different ways, they are identifiers of two distinctly different summoning conditions.
 
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And it appears you've missed my point entirely DJ.

Going from the field to the Graveyard is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that's relevant with these cards is the fact they say "If this CARD...", or "When this CARD...". They do not say "If this MONSTER CARD...", or "When this MONSTER CARD...".

As pointed out by NLFW, "Twin-Headed Behemoth" is almost identical to "Vampire Lord", yet one gets it's effect if destroyed while equipped to "Relinquished"/"Thousand-Eyes Restrict" and the other does not. Why is this? Because that's how Konami wanted it.

I did a quick search through RONIN and the Judge List last night before making my previous post, in order to find any kind of pattern as to which monsters are ruled which way when it comes to being equipped to "Relinquished"/"Thousand-Eyes Restrict". My findings, pretty much the only 2 that are 'nerfed' are "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" and "Vampire Lord".

I wonder why that is?.....
 
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Actually, Twin-Headed Behemoth is more like Sangan in respect to its text: "If this card is destroyed and sent from the field to the Graveyard..." It is also a field to the Graveyard effect. And as I pointed out, it's less about a mechanical explanation as it is a mechanical signature. Phoenix and V. Lord seem to be the only ones that follow that pattern. I never said there were not BKSSes, but they do appear to have text as significantly different from similar card types as their rulings.
 
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This is an excellent subject matter and the wording is similar yet different enough that I could see it either way. It's certainly something I'll ask Kevin / Dan / Justin about next time I see one of them, I'd be interested to get their input.
 
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