Replay

[John Danker]

UDE FAQ definition includes this description of a replay....

A replay causes the attack to "rewind" to the time when the attacking player chooses their attack target. The attacking player can choose to keep attacking with the monster, but choose a new attack target (including the original target, if possible & desired), or to not attack with that monster at all.

The question is, if a new attack target appears such as a monster which was special summoned with CoTH and the special summon is responded to with BTH, will the original attacking monster lose their ability to continue the attack?

It might look something like this...

P1 Attacks with Gemini Elf against P2's f/d monster.
P2 activates CoTH targeting his Reflect Bounder. (no additions to the chain)
P2 Special Summons Reflect Bounder with the resolution of Coth
P1 responds to the special summon with BTH.

Can P1 still attack with Gemini Elf?

Next scenario...

P1 attacks directly with Legendary Jujitsu Master and P2 activates Scapegoat. P1 responds to the summon with Enemy Controller to put one of the Sheep tokens in attack position and continue Jujitsu Master's attack on the atk position Sheep token. Legal?

 

[John Danker]

I think I get what you are saying....
AFTER CoH resolves, the play is rewound to th epoint of TP selecting an attack Target, THEREFORE can he legitiamtely activate Bottomless before he is REQUIRED to select the Target?

Is that the question?

Yes...or, if he does activate BTH (obviously it's an option at this point) does the attacking player give up the ability to attack with the monster that originally attacked since responding to the special summon is not an option given at the point of the occurance of a replay?

 

[masterwoo0]

I think this is simply a case of not all bases have been covered with the FAQ.

It's like designing a Baseball Park, and forgetting Third Base. It may make things look a little "different", but the game hasn't changed on how its supposed to be played, just because you're missing a Base, and it's easy enough to fix. You just "add it".

Now, if this isnt a case of adding in another line of text to the Replay FAQ, then it is going to be much deeper than "Can Bottomless Trap Hole be played?"

 

[John Danker]

I think this is simply a case of not all bases have been covered with the FAQ.

It's like designing a Baseball Park, and forgetting Third Base. It may make things look a little "different", but the game hasn't changed on how its supposed to be played, just because you're missing a Base, and it's easy enough to fix. You just "add it".

Now, if this isnt a case of adding in another line of text to the Replay FAQ, then it is going to be much deeper than "Can Bottomless Trap Hole be played?"

I tend to agree with you masterwoo0. There have certainly been times in the past though when UDE has misunderstood or mistranslated Konami. Seeing how it was difficult enough just to get across the intent and reason for my question though it's not out of the realm of possibility that indeed there was a missed translation.

I'll send this to the judges board (hoping I can get across why I'm asking it) and see what comes back.

 

[densetsu_x]

But in this case, the timing is right for other effects to be activated as a response to the summon.

In fact attacking and summoning have that lovely thing in common in that neither use the chain and you can create some really weird chains as a response.

I summon Mobius. At this point I can either a) Activate his effect or b) Retain Priority to activate the effect of another monster or a Speed 2 or 3 effect. My opponent can then either chain in response to the effect or the summon. I could chain Fake Trap to save my traps in this case and then chain Torrential Tribute after that still responding to the summon.

So really I don't see the difference with replays. The window is right for me to declare the attack (which also doesn't use the chain) as well as respond to the summon first. You don't lose that ability to redeclare an attack.

 

[Tkwiget]

Read everything. Interesting question John. I don't see why the player can't activate Bottomless Trap Hole since the last thing that resolved was a Special Summoning. The attack declaration was already made when the Turn Player entered the Battle Phase and selected his/her monster as the attacking monster and what the attack target is.

One of the key differences between a summoning and monster attack is that you can have multiple chains in response to a monster attack and only one response to a summoning.

 

[densetsu_x]

Um, no.

There is only 1 chain that can be done in response to a monster attack. After all, say my opponent attacks, I respond with Mirror Force and then he chains Trap Jammer. Once that chain resolves, I cannot turn around and activate Sakuretsu Armor. I can activate Waboku or Enemy Controller, but that has nothing to do with a response to a monster attack.

 

[John Danker]

I always phrase it as you can only have one response to the declaration of attack....but numerous responses to the attack.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Read everything. Interesting question John. I don't see why the player can't activate Bottomless Trap Hole since the last thing that resolved was a Special Summoning.

Is it? Or is the last thing to Resolve/occur the replay? I say that it is the summon, because the replay is a game mechanic (like sending an equip card from the field to the Graveyard when it's Monster is destroyed), and as such is considered a non-event. Even so, the first thing you do when you declare an attack is to select an attacker and an attack target. That is Step 1 (after, of course, you pay to be able to attack--should that be an issue).

If a replay occurs, the attacker is still already selected, but the selection of the target is not; so I don't see where this would not still be pre-attack declaration (it is interesting to note that you may de-select the attacking Monster, thereby suggesting that you are not still IN Step 1, but just before Step 1, but with a caviot that if you do continue to declare the attack, it must be with that Monster). Therefore, Bottomles is valid, so are any other SS2+ activations that activate before the attack Declaration.

We had this same question with Gravekeeper's Assailant (+ Necrovalley) and Spirit Reaper. I declare the attack, Assailant turns Reaper, reaper is destroyed, Rewind! I need to pick another attack target for Assailant before another attack is declared. Why can't I activate something now (maybe an Ojama Trio), before the attack commences?

 

[John Danker]

We had this same question with Gravekeeper's Assailant (+ Necrovalley) and Spirit Reaper. I declare the attack, Assailant turns Reaper, reaper is destroyed, Rewind! I need to pick another attack target for Assailant before another attack is declared. Why can't I activate something now (maybe an Ojama Trio), before the attack commences?

I missed that discussion, interensting comparrison and very relavant to this discussion.

 

[SoilentG]

I missed that discussion, interensting comparrison and very relavant to this discussion.

And what was the answer in that discussion? Yes, you can. ?

 

[kbs8014]

And what was the answer in that discussion? Yes, you can. ?

I believe the answer to be no. In the event of a replay you would not be able to activate an effect and also continue with the original attack declaration.

 

[Maruno]

I believe the answer to be no. In the event of a replay you would not be able to activate an effect and also continue with the original attack declaration.

I would agree here. You must declare your new attack target before doing anything else.

You can then activate Ojama Trio, cause another Replay, and then choose to attack an Ojama Token.

Declaring an attack target is like drawing in the Draw Phase. It's the absolute first thing that can possibly happen (ignoring the one or two exceptions). And "declaring an attack target" means choosing the monster that will attack, AND the monster to be attacked/Life Points.


Are you guys sure you can activate Bottomless Trap Hole after a Replay? Surely the last thing to happen then is not a Special Summon, but an attack declaration? Isn't it missed timing?

 

[kbs8014]

Are you guys sure you can activate Bottomless Trap Hole after a Replay? Surely the last thing to happen then is not a Special Summon, but an attack declaration? Isn't it missed timing?

I think you are able to activate Bottomless Trap Hole. The turn player can choose not to attack. In this event it should be possible and proper to respond to the special summon.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

By the "attack Declaration" you are talking about the rewind...but that is a game mechanic, which is a non-event. The last "event" to occur, was, in fact, the Special Summon.

 

[Maruno]

Fair enough.

P1 Attacks with Gemini Elf against P2's f/d monster.
P2 activates CoTH targeting his Reflect Bounder. (no additions to the chain)
P2 Special Summons Reflect Bounder with the resolution of Coth
P1 responds to the special summon with BTH.

Can P1 still attack with Gemini Elf?

Yes. There are two Replays here. The first occurs after Call of the Haunted resolves, and Reflect Bounder is Special Summoned. Gemini Elf can now attack the face-down monster or Reflect Bounder (or stop attacking), and P1 must choose to continue Gemini Elf's attack or stop it. Let's assume P1 chooses to attack something.

P1 then activates Bottomless Trap Hole. Reflect Bounder is destroyed and removed from play, and Call of the Haunted is destroyed. Now the second Replay occurs.

Gemini Elf can now attack the face-down monster (or stop attacking), and P1 must choose to continue Gemini Elf's attack or stop it.

P1 attacks directly with Legendary Jujitsu Master and P2 activates Scapegoat. P1 responds to the summon with Enemy Controller to put one of the Sheep tokens in attack position and continue Jujitsu Master's attack on the atk position Sheep token. Legal?

Yes. There is 1 Replay here, and it occurs after Scapegoat resolves.

Legendary Jujitsu Master can attack one of the 4 Sheep Tokens, and P1 must choose to continue Legendary Jujitsu Master's attack or stop it. Assume he attacks a Sheep Token.

P1 can now activate Enemy Controller to switch the position of a Sheep Token. This action does NOT cause a Replay.



The activation of Bottomless Trap Hole does NOT occur before attack declaration. You must choose to continue the attack (or not) before activating any card/any effect.

Note that now, when you activate Bottomless Trap Hole, you activate it in the "respond to declaration of attack" chain (i.e. when Mirror Force/Magic Cylinder/etc. are activated).