Response Window

[Duelmaster]

I can't find the post which Dan posted on the Judgelist. I have already searched on the forum and on the Judgelist but I can't find it. Can somebody post it for me please. Thanks in Advance.

 

[skey23]

You can't find it because it wasn't posted in a public forum. The information was provided by an L3 to this site at great risk to himself. You can probably search the rules section and find it, or you can simply ask your question and myself, or any of the other L3's on this site will be happy to answer it.

 

[Duelmaster]

You can't find it because it wasn't posted in a public forum. The information was provided by an L3 to this site at great risk to himself. You can probably search the rules section and find it, or you can simply ask your question and myself, or any of the other L3's on this site will be happy to answer it.

I have not a question. I need to something explain to a guy.

This is de situation.

Player A: Attacks player B with Dark Magician.
Player A: Has Priority but pass.
Player B: Has Priority but pass.

Now your still in the Battle Step, because you move to antoher step if both players agree with it.

Player A: Activates Enemy Controller
The guy thinks that he now can activate Sakuretsu Armor.


He comes with arguments like this:
If a card's effect is activated, the opponents is always given a change to respond with 1 of their own card, creating a chain.

He doesn't know anything about Responds Window and he's a LV2 Judge. :S

 

[skey23]

Well, he's right and he's wrong. He most certainly IS given the chance to respond to your activation of "Enemy Controller". But since both players passed on the response to the Attack Declaration, NEITHER player can activate any effects that have timing like "Sakuretsu Armor" or "Mirror Force". That timing is now gone.

Either player can activate cards that don't have the specific timing issues like "Enemy Controller" or "Waboku" or "Call of the Haunted".


Hope this helps!

 

[Duelmaster]

Well, he's right and he's wrong. He most certainly IS given the chance to respond to your activation of "Enemy Controller". But since both players passed on the response to the Attack Declaration, NEITHER player can activate any effects that have timing like "Sakuretsu Armor" or "Mirror Force". That timing is now gone.

Either player can activate cards that don't have the specific timing issues like "Enemy Controller" or "Waboku" or "Call of the Haunted".


Hope this helps!

The problem is that he won't understand this how many times we tell him this. That is why I was looking for that offical post maybe he will believe it than.

He doens't understand that there is a 'Response Window'.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, he's right and he's wrong. He most certainly IS given the chance to respond to your activation of "Enemy Controller". But since both players passed on the response to the Attack Declaration, NEITHER player can activate any effects that have timing like "Sakuretsu Armor" or "Mirror Force". That timing is now gone.

Either player can activate cards that don't have the specific timing issues like "Enemy Controller" or "Waboku" or "Call of the Haunted".


Hope this helps!

Yeah, what he said. This is going to end up being a bone of contention once players start abusing it more often, especially since Enemy Controller is even MORE accessible!!!

The problem is that he won't understand this how many times we tell him this. That is why I was looking for that offical post maybe he will believe it than.

He doens't understand that there is a 'Response Window'.

For one, there is no "Official Post", as Konami has not blessed off on anything other than what is listed in the "Official Rule Book" about Priority.

So, just like the Penguin's in Madagascar... "You didnt see ANYTHING...."

 

[skey23]

The problem is that he won't understand this how many times we tell him this. That is why I was looking for that offical post maybe he will believe it than.

He doens't understand that there is a 'Response Window'.

Well, if he's not willing to believe 2 Level 3 Judges, then let him think what he wants to. The first time he tries that at a big event, and gets denied by the Judge/Head Judge, he'll listen.

The post you are looking for is actually outdated and contains incorrect information (If I'm remembering correctly), so it would not be good to use anyway.

 

[Duelmaster]

Yeah, what he said. This is going to end up being a bone of contention once players start abusing it more often, especially since Enemy Controller is even MORE accessible!!!


For one, there is no "Official Post", as Konami has not blessed off on anything other than what is listed in the "Official Rule Book" about Priority.

So, just like the Penguin's in Madagascar... "You didnt see ANYTHING...."

The Judgelist is good enough for him.

 

[John Danker]

As was mentioned, it's not posted to the judge list and there is a reason behind that. The two best things we can tell you are, is there anything posted that says he CAN do that....and....give it a go at the next SJC he's at and see if the HJ sides with him.

Eventually (hopefully) the explination that goes along with what we're telling you will be posted officially. Until that time you're at the mercy of the HJ at whatever tournament you're at.

 

[masterwoo0]

The Judgelist is good enough for him.

That is what I am trying to tell you. There is NOTHING to show you. There is no Judge List post. The "Post" you are referring to is ONLY for Level 3's to review and discuss, and is not for public release, as nothing is "official" from that document.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

This same situation came up during the regionals that took place during day 2 of the Boston shonen jump of 06. It was appealed to me (as head judge) and I also ruled that Sakuretsu Armor as allowed. The player was from John William's region and begged me to go ask John since he WAS present. Being that no judge is infalable and that a good one is willing to admit mistakes I did in fact ask John since he was being nice about it.

When I talked to John he sided with the player saying that sakuretsu armor can not be activated. I'm still unclear as to the reasoning, but from what I understand there are two portions in which effects can be activated in the attack step. Untill I was told otherwise by John, I had thought that multiple chains occured in the attack step and every chain that did occur was in response to the attack decleration itself. If another level three could further explain in more detail the mechanics of this and why it is the way it is it would be of great use.

 

[SoilentG]

From the example that Duelmaster provided, wouldn't the TP be activating Enemy Controller in the Damage Calculation Step? I thought you could only activate Spell Speed 2's that modify ATK or DEF here. Note, I'm not claiming to know the answer... just adding that it's confusing and would like a write up like exiledforcefreak asks for...

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Well no in the simplest way its like this. The opportunity to respond to the attack decleration was passed on so sak and mirror lose their timing. The attack is then about to go through and so you respond to the attack itself instead of the declaration of said attack.

Am i making sense or do i sound like an idiot?

 

[Dr Sin]

Wow, again this discussion!
SoilentG said:

From the example that Duelmaster provided, wouldn't the TP be activating Enemy Controller in the Damage Calculation Step? I thought you could only activate Spell Speed 2's that modify ATK or DEF here. Note, I'm not claiming to know the answer... just adding that it's confusing and would like a write up like exiledforcefreak asks fo

Calm down... 1st thing: I think you meant Damage Step (since damage calculation is a sub step of the DS).
2nd, after both passing in response to an attack, BS doesn't immediately ends. This phase allows multiple chains and as all other phases except Damage Step, it can't end until both agree to proceed to the next phase.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well no in the simplest way its like this. The opportunity to respond to the attack decleration was passed on so sak and mirror lose their timing. The attack is then about to go through and so you respond to the attack itself instead of the declaration of said attack.

Am i making sense or do i sound like an idiot?

You just, in a round about way, added to the confusion, rather than detracting from it (you stated that you can still respond to the attack, which you can't).

Once both player's pass on the response to the Attack Declaration, no effects can be activated that will only respond to a attack being declared, such as

Magic Cylinder
Negate Attack
Sakuretsu Armor
Mirror Force
Widespread Ruin

The above cards are now out of commission for the remainder of that monsters Battle Phase.

Now that the priority is back to the turn player, he STILL may activate any other effects that do not have to be activated directly after a Attack Declaration, like Waboku (if he is attacking a monster with similar ATK), Enemy Controller, Offerings to the Doomed, Compulsory Evacuation Device, Ring of Destruction, as well as the opponent being able to similarly activate these same effects, since they do not have specific timing.

Remember, you may create more than one chain in the Battle Phase, and the Battle Step is no different, since both players must agree that the Attack progresses to the Damage Step.

 

[John Danker]

Perhaps the easiest way to explain it is this...Mirror Force and Sakuretsu Armor (among others) think of as respeonding to the attack declaration...

I declare an attack with Gemini Elf and pass priority.

Your respond with Sakuretsu Armor

(all is well and good)

In the next scenario...

I declare an attack with Gemini Elf and pass priority.

You do not wish to respond to the attack declaration.

I announce that I wish to enter the damage step.

You announce that you wish to activate a trap and do so activating Waboku.

In the second scenario you're responding to the attack but not the declaration of attack.

Now put that in the scenario we're talking about...

I attack with Gemini Elf and pass priority.

You state you do not wish to respond to my declaration of attack.

I activate Enemy Controler

You attempt to chain Sakuretsu Armor...but you are no longer responding to the declaration of attack and it's ruled an illegal activation.

This thought pattern is supported by the effect text of Mirror Force...

"You can only activate this card when your opponent's monster declares an attack. Destroy all Attack Position monsters on your opponent's side of the field"

and Sakuretsu Armor...

Activate only when your opponent declares an attack. Destroy the attacking monster.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

HAH. See that wooo. The Dankmeister is backing up my childish explanation. In your face space coyote!!!

 

[SoilentG]

Since I was following the unoffical Battle Phase sticky in these forums: http://www.cogonline.net/threads.6503 ....

I didn't realize you could create multiple chains between the Attack Declaration and the Damage Step. My faulty understanding was that once both players pass (TP first, then NTP), then you automatically go into the next step/phase. The Battle Phase write-up (linked above) says the TP only has Priorty to respond which is not as clear as stating he also Priority to create new chains after the response to the Attack Declaration or lack there of.

 

[masterwoo0]

HAH. See that wooo. The Dankmeister is backing up my childish explanation. In your face space coyote!!!

Actually, I still dont see it as responding to the attack, as Magic Cylinder doesnt say that it can only be activated in response to an attack.

So, theoretically, if you are responding [still] to the attack, you could activate Magic Cylinder.

Negate the attack of 1 of your opponent's monsters and inflict damage equal to the attacking monster's ATK to your opponent's Life Points.

 

[John Danker]

The key thing to remember there SoilentG is that no step or phase ends until both players agree it ends. No step or phase automatically progresses without both player's consent.