Ruling debate: Sinister Serpent, cost effect or optional trigger?

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Raijinili

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Branching off of this topic:
http://nforums.netrep.net/index.php/topic,1208.0.html

Now to continue.

Spirit Ryu's text.
You can only activate this effect during your Battle Step if this card battles during your turn. Discard 1 Dragon-Type monster from your hand to the Graveyard to increase the ATK and DEF of this card by 1000 points until the End Step.

Dark Magician of Chaos
When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned successfully, you can add 1 Spell Card from your Graveyard to your hand. A monster that is destroyed by this monster as a result of battle is removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard. When this card is destroyed or removed from the field, it is removed from play.

Sinister Serpent's text
During your Standby Phase, if a "Sinister Serpent" exists in your Graveyard, you can return the "Sinister Serpent" to your hand.

Okay, not such a great example, but I will keep looking.

Better example:
Inspection
During your opponent's Standby Phase, you can pay 500 Life Points to randomly select 1 card in your opponent's hand and look at it.

Now can you say that's a triggered effect?
 
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Well, i wish i could stay and debate because it is good, and i'm not saying in any way that i am ultimately right, i'm just going by what i see. I gotta take off though, but i will look more closely and return later.

Firstly, we know that magic/traps and monster effects are different. Inspection is a continuous magic, with a manual effect, and no that is not a trigger (well maybe in a sense paying the cost is the trigger), but in reality it is not. It simply tells you when you can activate it. What i am saying is that it does not auto-activate at all, it is like any other manually activated effect, can choose to activate or not.

Secondly, based on the newer text of Spirit Ryu, it seems to be similar to Mirror Force or any other attack related effect, it simply has an attack declaration response timing, but is still manually activated, and does not auto-trigger, it is simply limited to only the Battle Step.

The thing about Sinister that sets it apart is infact the condition "if a "Sinister Serpent" exists in your Graveyard" as it sets in motion the activation of the effect. Without that existance, you have no activation, therefore it is a conditional trigger, and since you have a choice, it is also optional. I do see the other side though, but based on the text of Sinister, it seemed pretty clear to me.

As far as Divine Wrath goes, i have to admit, i'm not sure either way, i always assumed it would be once for every instance. It could however be that you can just keep activating it, but that would seem odd to me.
 
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Sinister's serpent is an effect that can be activated during your standby phase. Replace standby phase with Main Phase and you would obviously have a Cost effect.

Sinister Serpent's effect can be activated an unlimited number of times during the standby phase, or it can be ignored completely.

It is a cost effect. If sinister Serpent exists in your graveyard is no different then other cost effects having to be on the field. It's not a trigger, but explaining when you can use its effect: During the Standby phase.
 
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Raijinili said:
Just because there's a condition doesn't mean it's a trigger.  Look at the Element monsters.
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I'm not saying that... i'm only saying that in the case of Sinister Serpent.

I realize that there are a lot of conditional continuous effects.

I will ask for a ruling on the list...
 
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The divine wrath with sinister is still confusing. But I think that sinister is a continuous effect monster because you can choose to recover it this turn or the next. Not like Vampire Lord where you can only revive it in the next of your turns where it has been to the graveyard, if you forget to revive it consider it lost.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Sinister's serpent is an effect that can be activated during your standby phase.  Replace standby phase with Main Phase and you would obviously have a Cost effect.

Sinister Serpent's effect can be activated an unlimited number of times during the standby phase, or it can be ignored completely.

It is a cost effect.  If sinister Serpent exists in your graveyard is no different then other cost effects having to be on the field.  It's not a trigger, but explaining when you can use its effect: During the Standby phase. 
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Since we are into re-writing card text...what if i wrote Sinister Serpent's effect like this:

"During your Standby Phase, if a "Sinister Serpent" exists in your Graveyard, return the "Sinister Serpent" to your hand."

Would that be a cost effect or a trigger? all i did was remove the "you can" which like every other optional trigger, simply makes the effect optional, but does not change the fact that it is still a triggered activation.

And also in the case of conditional triggers, i looked more closely into it....

Dark Mimic Lv3 is a perfect example of conditional triggers, that use the "if" wording as well.

"If this card is sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, the controller of this card draws 1 card from his/her Deck. If this card was Special Summoned by the effect of "Dark Mimic LV1", he/she draws 2 cards instead."

Or Penumbral Soldier Lady:

"If this card battles with a LIGHT monster, increase the ATK of this card by 1000 points during the Damage Step."

I realize that these conditions seem event driven, it does not mean that existance cannot be a condition. Although PSL triggers based on whether PLS is battling is a LIGHT monster or not, so it is really the existance of that LIGHT monster that triggers the effect.

If one of the Element Monsters stated this: "WIND: Destroy 2 Spell or Trap cards on the field" That would be a conditional trigger based on the existance of a WIND monster face-up on the field. Unfortunatly, all the current examples of the Element Monsters involve continuous effects, but the above effect would still be possible.

I see Sinister Serpent much in the same light. I've posted this on the board...

Just my thoughts
 
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well i dont see them in the same light because if you take a look at sinister serpent:

You may return the sinister serpent to your hand. This effect sounds very much like a cost effect to me with a condition, like Archlord zerato. However Perumbral Soldier lady has a effect that triggers immediately when something happens, in her case when she battles a light monster. You do not have a choice in the matter, but with sinister serpent you do, as it tells you the actual activation conditions.

the real boarderline i see are the monarchs, where the effect is multitrigger but optional
 
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You have 3 types of triggers, mandatory, optional, and multi-trigger. The monarch's are optional triggers, not multi-triggers, since they are spell speed 1. Just because an effect is optional does not make it a cost effect.
 
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chenw said:
but if it is spell speed 1, then does it activate when it is tribute summoned during your opponent's turn? i thought it does
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It does, being a spell speed 1 does not mean it won't activate on the opponent's turn. Triggers by nature can activate at any time either the event or condition is met, no matter who's turn it is.

You cannot activate cost effects on the opponent's turn.
 
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sinister serpent, honestly, has got to be the most talked/disputed monster of the game of yu-gioh! today haha. but his effect is a trigger effect if he exist in your graveyard, at anytime he "exist" keyword people, in your graveyard, u may retrive him as many times as u want, as long as you want. lets not get technical people, lets just leave it at that.
 
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SS to me seems like a trigger effect like mention, but not only is it a trigger its an Optional effect that triggers.

cause it says You can, YOu do not have to, and it contiues on activating every standby for the rest of the game were there exist a sinister serpent.

its kidna kool i guess.
 
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krazykidpsx said:
i my self for sometime thought it was continous, but it isnt because it can get negated by Devine wrath.
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Sininister is not negated by Divine wrath, it is explained in the forum named "Divine wrath vs. IFL" where densetsu-x clarified which monsters Divine Wrath affects.
 
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krazykidpsx said:
yea and i saw that he said you can use it, but later on itll come right back up, its not a permanent negation like Dark Ruler vs. Sinister Serpent.
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It is not the same you cannot activate DW vs SS. But as hades did apply his effect on SS it won´t get back
 
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this is what D_X said when i asked about the element magicians and BLS-E we then found out EM are continous or something.

"Quote from: krazykidpsx on November 26, 2004, 10:51:13 AM
Hey D_X, if you read were it says, " and monsters like "Element Magician" when it attacks twice.

You cannot chain "Divine Wrath" to Continuous Effects such as: "Perfect Machine King", "Raging Flame Sprite" (either effect), "Jinzo", "Harpie Lady 3", "Fusilier Dragon the Dual-Mode Beast", or monsters like "Element Saurus" that gain ATK continuously."

Wouldnt that Include BLS-E since the double attack effect doesnt happen unless it destroys a monster?


*Re-reads*

Well then yes it would include the second effect of BLS-EotB as well then since it's the exact same thing as "Element Magician". Good catch on that one.

*Re-reads "Sinister Serpent"*

Well, that appears to be a trigger effect. So then you could use "Divine Wrath" against it. Thing is, you can always get it next standby phase."
 
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