Rulings test

J

John Danker

Administrator
I give credit to tyloki who posted this test on another site for the couple of questions I'm posting. They certainly provoke thought.....

1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?


2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons Tribe-Infecting Virus, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
 
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1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?
Click to expand...
Yes.

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?
Click to expand...
It is not destroyed due to the effect of Heavy Mech Support Platform.

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
Click to expand...
Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Resolve

Link 2: Desert Sunlight (flips all monsters face-up)
[Cyber Jar is flipped face up here]
Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus (destroys Shining Angel)

New chain

Link 1:Cyber Jar
Link 2: Shining Angel

Resolve

Link 2: Shining Angel (not destroyed in battle, no effect)
Link 1: Cyber Jar (effect goes off ... etc)
 
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John Danker said:
I give credit to tyloki who posted this test on another site for the couple of questions I'm posting. They certainly provoke thought.....

1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?
Click to expand...

Yes it does.

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?
Click to expand...

Yes it is destroyed as a result of both. a) It is first destroyed by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", which becomes saved by "Heavy Mech Support Platform" (and that is destroyed). But with that gone b) it is then considered destroyed by its own effect.

2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons Tribe-Infecting Virus, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe-Infecting Virus
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
Click to expand...

Resolution:
1) Desert Sunlight resolves, flipping Cyber Jar face up (and activating its effect)
2) TIV's effect resolves destroying Shining Angel.

At this point a new chain begins because Cyber Jar's effect activates. All monsters are now destroyed and both players pick up 5 cards and etc.
 
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Okay I'll take a stab at it.
1. Dark Ruler Ha Des attacks a Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech Support Platform.

1.1 Does Reflect Bounder inflict the 2450?

1.2 Is Reflect Bounder destroyed? If yes, is it:

A: destroyed as a result of battle?
B: destroyed by its effect?
Click to expand...
Presuming Reflect Bounder is in Attack Position.
If Reflect Bounders Trigger Effect activates in Damage Sub-step 2 and Reflect Bounder destroys itself by its own effect in Sub-step 4 then the Ha Des wouldn't get a chance to destroy Reflect Bounder before its effect goes off becasue the "destroyed as a result of battle" portion of the damage step isn't reached until Sub-step 5. That said, Heavy Mech Support would be destroyed in place of Reflect Bounder when Bounder attempts to destroy itself. Then Ha Des' attack will finish off Reflect Bounder but it will be too late to negate its effect.


2. Player B has a face-down Cyber Jar.
Player A summons tribe, and uses priority to use the effect. He declares Fairy (to kill his own Shining Angel).
Player B chains Desert Sunlight (to flip the face-down jar face-up)

Link 1: Tribe
Link 2: Desert Sunlight

Show how the chain would resolve, and tell what order the effects would happen
Click to expand...
Chain Link 2 resolves first flipping Cyber Jar face-up which will begin a new chain after the current chain resolves. Tribe's effect will destroy the Shinning Angel (which, of course, will not gains it's effect because it was not destroyed by battle) and any other fairy types face-up in play. After this chain resolves then Cyber Jar will begin the new chain and if unchained to will resolve as normal.

There were no other posts when I started typing this so hopefully I don't embarrass myself too much. :)
Click to expand...
 
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Ok, the only one in question now is the Dark Ruler, Reflect, Heavy Mech one...lol.

Dark Ruler - ATK 2450
Reflect equipped with Heavy Mech - ATK 2200
Dark Ruler attacks Reflect.
Reflect inflicts the 2450 BEFORE it's deemed destroyed by battle.
Now, instead of being destroyed by battle it's saved by Heavy Mech.
Therefore, it was not destroyed as a result of battle by Dark Ruler. Therefore Dark Ruler does NOT negate Reflect's self destruct effect, so Reflect WILL be destroyed but by his own effect.

man, my head hurts now..I'm changing my answer above...
 
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Ok, I just discovered something interesting here.

Thanks to Digital Jedi's post.

According to Kevin's original battle phase chart, Reflect destroys itself in sub step 4, BEFORE a monster is considered destroyed as a result of battle and BEFORE Dark Ruler can negate effects.

Then there is this ruling from the UDE site:
"[Re: Reflect Bounder] When "Reflect Bounder" is attacked by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", "Reflect Bounder" inflicts its effect damage, damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, "Dark Ruler Ha Des" negates "Reflect Bounder"'s effect, and "Reflect Bounder" does not destroy itself with its own effect, however it was still destroyed as a result of battle."

They contradict each other!!!

Which one do we go by!!

I'm sure the official answer would be to go by the posted rulings.
 
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Well, Simon has found a minor inconsistancy (an inconsistancy? really? wow!)

Let's take the ruling:
"¢ When "Reflect Bounder" is attacked by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", "Reflect Bounder" inflicts its effect damage, damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, "Dark Ruler Ha Des" negates "Reflect Bounder"'s effect, and "Reflect Bounder" does not destroy itself with its own effect, however it was still destroyed as a result of battle.

Now let's take Kevin's essay from back in the day:
[4] Calculate and apply damage Part 2: "Apply damage"

>> Inflict damage to players' Life Points.

>> Card effects that activate when a monster inflicts Battle
Damage to a player's Life Points activate, form a chain, and resolve now
("Don Zaloog", "Airknight Parshath", "Robbin' Goblin", etc.).

>> "Reflect Bounder", if attacked while in Attack Position, destroys itself
now.

[5] Resolve effects

>> From this point forward, monsters are considered
"destroyed". So monsters destroyed by "Dark Ruler Ha Des" cannot activate
their effects, destroyed monsters are not eligible for selection by card
effects such as "Hane Hane", etc.

Ok then what we have here is "When exactly does Reflect Bounder nuke himself?" since according to the ruling it would be after step 5 while in the essay chart it would be step 4.

If we go by the ruling: HMSP "saves" Reflect Bounder from DRHD only to be blown up by his own effect.

If we go by the essay: HMSP "saves" Reflect Bounder from it's own effect and then is destroyed by DRHD.

In either case, he's still destroyed. :)

EDIT

*looks up* Hi Simon! :cool:
 
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To be fair though, the essay isn't "public" so technically, the official rulings should be the guide that players/judges go by... because otherwise we might have to start enforcing the BLS-EotB ruling from last year's worlds... :p
 
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densetsu_x said:
To be fair though, the essay isn't "public" so technically, the official rulings should be the guide that players/judges go by... because otherwise we might have to start enforcing the BLS-EotB ruling from last year's worlds... :p
Click to expand...

You're referring to the way the Japanesee play it as to how we rule it I presume? They play it as which effect one will use must be choosen upon summoning?
 
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That would be the one... yes... but that's for another thread.

Still waiting for some more answers before hitting us with the surprise? :) Or do you figure the answers up there have spoiled it sufficiently such that you'll launch your own 4th of July Specticle now? :)
 
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