Scapegoat & Spatial Collapse

[Maruno]

I was having a random think about this yesterday. I have a Set Scapegoat and a Set Spatial Collapse (both can be activated). Let's assume there are no other cards on the field to worry about.

If I activate Spatial Collapse and let it resolve, I cannot then activate Scapegoat, because The Ruling says I can't.

"¢ While "Spatial Collapse" is active and you have 1 or more cards already on your side of the field, you cannot activate "Scapegoat" because you would have your 1 previous card + the "Scapegoat" card + 4 monster tokens = 6.

However, what about chaining the two cards together?

Scenario 1: I activate Spatial Collapse and chain Scapegoat. Scapegoat resolves and Summons the Tokens, then Spatial Collapse resolves and... things get a little hazy. Scapegoat remains on the field until the end of the chain, meaning there'd be 6 cards on the field. But would I have to get rid of a card to bring the total down to 5 during resolution of Spatial Collapse, or does that wait until the chain is finished (at which point Scapegoat goes to the Graveyard so it's not an issue anyway)?

Scenario 2: I activate Scapegoat and chain Spatial Collapse. Spatial Collapse resolves first, and then Scapegoat tries to resolve. Does it, since it would make 6 cards be on the field?


I have a feeling that Scenario 1 would work fine, and in Scenario 2 Scapegoat would have its effect nulled (thus no Sheep Tokens and a wasted Scapegoat). Clarification would help, though.

 

[Kyhotae]

I'm pretty sure that this is one of those "conditions only have to be correct at activation" things. Once everything resolves and you're down to 5 cards, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[skey23]

My question is this....

Why would you want to lock YOURSELF down? If I were your opponent, I'd just sit there and watch you deck out....lol.

 

[Jason_C]

Why would you want to lock YOURSELF down? If I were your opponent, I'd just sit there and watch you deck out....lol.

^SPAM

You might want to protect yourself from an opponent's attacking monster. Assuming you had more cards in your deck (as spatial collapse decks often do), your opponent would have to attack and destroy the tokens one by one, after which point you could play new cards to aid your defenses.

On the actual topic of the thread, I think in scenario 1, it would work alright, and in scenario 2, the Scapegoat would summon as many tokens as possible and then stop.

:edit Nah, Scapegoat wouldn't summon tokens. But Scapegoat would cause the player to summon tokens. Minor technical issue. Cards don't summon cards.

 

[Maruno]

Sheep Tokens can be used for high-level Toon Monsters. But as I said, I was just randomly thinking about this.

 

[Entropy]

My two cents...

Wasn't there a ruling that if you have less than four zones when Scapegoat resolves, no tokens will be summoned? I think that's what will happen in scenario 2.

For scenario #1...

"¢ If "Spatial Collapse" is activated, and an effect is chained so that a player has more than 5 cards on the field after "Spatial Collapse" resolves, the controller selects cards to send to the Graveyard to make the number 5.

...you'd remove cards until you have 5.

 

[Kyhotae]

...you'd remove cards until you have 5.

There would be no need. "Scapegoat" is no it's way to the Graveyard anyway. Unless, for some reason, you didn't want one of the "Sheep Tokens", you could, concievably, send one of THOSE instead of "Scapegoat" so you had 4 cards instead of 5 after it was all said and done...

 

[HorusMaster]

^SPAM

You might want to protect yourself from an opponent's attacking monster. Assuming you had more cards in your deck (as spatial collapse decks often do), your opponent would have to attack and destroy the tokens one by one, after which point you could play new cards to aid your defenses.

On the actual topic of the thread, I think in scenario 1, it would work alright, and in scenario 2, the Scapegoat would summon as many tokens as possible and then stop.

:edit Nah, Scapegoat wouldn't summon tokens. But Scapegoat would cause the player to summon tokens. Minor technical issue. Cards don't summon cards.

If I were the opponent, why attack? Unless you're running a Toon deck, you wouldn't be able to summon a monster. I'd watch you draw and deck out.

 

[Maruno]

If I were the opponent, why attack? Unless you're running a Toon deck, you wouldn't be able to summon a monster. I'd watch you draw and deck out.

Can we assume this is not a practical scenario? The odds that this will occur is practically zero; but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Besides, as I said, I was randomly thinking about it, and I realised I wasn't sure what would happen.


For Scenario 1, Scapegoat is still on the field. I suppose since you can chain Mystical Space Typhoon to a Change of Heart (or other card that disappears after use) to destroy it, you can choose to destroy Scapegoat instead of any Sheep Tokens.

But would this destruction happen DURING the resolution of Scapegoat, or is it more Continuous, in that it'll only kick in AFTER resolution (at which point Scapegoat has gone to the Graveyard, so there's no issue)?


For Scenario 2, I'm pretty sure it's all or none. The effect of Scapegoat would disappear.

 

[Jason_C]

If I were the opponent, why attack? Unless you're running a Toon deck, you wouldn't be able to summon a monster. I'd watch you draw and deck out.

Did you see the part of my post that read "Assuming you have more cards in your deck..."?

No longer shall I spam this thread explaining the practical application of a theoretical rulings debate.

 

[english chef]

Did you see the part of my post that read "Assuming you have more cards in your deck..."?

No longer shall I spam this thread explaining the practical application of a theoretical rulings debate.

I have run a deck with both scapegoat and spatial collapse: sometimes you really do need to protect yourself whilst preventing the opponent from playing extra cards. Get the collapse up before they can get jinzo out for example. Remember that most decks dont have anything that tramples, so goat locking yourself can be worthwhile, especially if the opponent doesnt have any means of winning except by attacking and causing damage.

On a slightly related note, consider Ojama Trio and spatial collapse activated in a chain, where the opponent already has 3+ cards on the field. This might be considered a more likely occurence...

 

[Entropy]

Just noticed something...

"¢ When "Cyber Jar" is activated while "Spatial Collapse" is active, if the number of cards exceeds 5, each player selects cards to send to the Graveyard to make the number 5.

So, if we apply that to scenario #2, Scapegoat would summon the goats, but then you'd have to send cards to the Graveyard (or "remove them from the field" for tokens).

There would be no need [to remove cards in scenario #2]. "Scapegoat" is no it's way to the Graveyard anyway. Unless, for some reason, you didn't want one of the "Sheep Tokens", you could, concievably, send one of THOSE instead of "Scapegoat" so you had 4 cards instead of 5 after it was all said and done...

Technically, Spatial Collapse's continuous effect applies, and then you would have to end the chain and remove Scapegoat. But, you should be able to send Scapegoat itself to the Graveyard.

 

[Kyhotae]

Technically, Spatial Collapse's continuous effect applies, and then you would have to end the chain and remove Scapegoat. But, you should be able to send Scapegoat itself to the Graveyard.

Yeah, that's why I said that.