Severely need an official ruling on this...

[SynjoDeonecros]

Physical Double
Trap
Effect: You can only activate this card during your opponent's turn. Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field and Special Summon 1 "Mirage Token" in face-up Attack or Defense Position on your side of the field. The "Mirage Token" has the same Level, Type, Attribute, ATK, and DEF as the selected monster. Destroy the "Mirage Token" at the end of the turn.

Interdemensional Matter Tansporter
Trap
Effect: Select 1 face-up monster on your side of the field and remove it from play until the End Phase of the turn this card is activated.


Question: am I able to use Interdimensional Matter Transporter to remove the Mirage Token summoned by Physical Double until the end of the opponent's turn, thus resetting the 'destroy the Mirage Token at the end of the turn' effect on the card and saving the Token for further use?

I have tried Pojo's and School of Duel's forums, but have gotten nothing but unsubstantiated rulings and word-of-mouth, 'he said, she said' confirmations about it. I KNOW Netrep will give an official ruling on this, so I'm hoping I can finally put this matter to rest. Thank you.

 

[krazykidpsx]

once a token is removed from the field its gone.

Tokens do not go to the graveyard, etc.. etc..

you also arnt allowed to put a token face down ( stupid thing from my part that i used to do w/ tsukuyomi )

for this question, just read your rulebook, or the basic rules for tokens.

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

I don't have my rulebook with me, so I can't consult it, and I can't find a copy of it on the 'net, anywhere. The closest I've come to finding any 'official' general monster token rulings is on Edo's page, and that only states why the tokens are removed from play when destroyed and/or returned to your hand/deck, nothing about using cards like Dimensionhole to remove them from the field temporarily.

 

[Maester Bacman]

:| Ejem. First, yugioh-card.com and netrep.net have the official rulebook online.

Second, the ruling of Different Dimension Gate provides the answer:

"You can select a Monster Token when you activate "Different Dimension Gate", but the token is destroyed."

The same will happen if Dimensionhole or Interdimensional Matter Transporter are used.

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

Then is there any way to prevent the Mirage Token from being destroyed at the end of the turn it's summoned? Can't I use something like Imperial Order (or something similar) to negate that last part of Physical Double's effect?

And, for the record, I think it's stupid that that ruling on token monsters is in place. It's considered a monster when the token's summoned, so it should be treated as a monster by cards like Dimensionhole, too. I can understand why the token's removed from play when it's destroyed or sent to the hand/deck, since they're not CARDS, but cards like Dimensionhole don't specify CARDS, only monsters, and there really isn't any 'removed from play card pile' that the monsters go to during the card's effect. Why does Konami have to be a hater on monster tokens?

 

[densetsu_x]

Then is there any way to prevent the Mirage Token from being destroyed at the end of the turn it's summoned? Can't I use something like Imperial Order (or something similar) to negate that last part of Physical Double's effect?

First off, "Imperial Order" would have no effect whatsoever on a trap card. Second, if an effect sets a "state" for a certain item, once that state is set, it cannot be negated (exceptions being when a monster is destroyed, removed from the field, or flipped face down and then brought face up back to the field. This is because the monster is being treated as a "new" monster). It is why if you activate "Waboku" and then summon "Jinzo" to the field, that "Jinzo" cannot negate "Waboku"'s effect. That state was already set. Same reason why if I use "Magical Scientist" to bring a fusion monster to the field, and then "Skill Drain" is activated, the fusion monster must still return to the fusion deck at the end of turn.

And, for the record, I think it's stupid that that ruling on token monsters is in place. It's considered a monster when the token's summoned, so it should be treated as a monster by cards like Dimensionhole, too. I can understand why the token's removed from play when it's destroyed or sent to the hand/deck, since they're not CARDS, but cards like Dimensionhole don't specify CARDS, only monsters, and there really isn't any 'removed from play card pile' that the monsters go to during the card's effect. Why does Konami have to be a hater on monster tokens?

Even though they are treated as monsters you have to remember: Tokens are only created by the effects of other cards. When you use a card like "Dimensionhole" or "Interdimensional Matter Transporter" you are causing the game to put the monster out of play and negate any effects that are tied to it (so a Machine-Type monster that had "Limiter Removal" activated upon it will not be destroyed during the end phase if the monster returns during the same end phase). Negating these effects on a token causes it to disappear altogether since the effect that made that state of putting the token on the field no longer exists.

- Andrew

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

So, pretty much, there's no way to save the Mirage Token from being destroyed. Crap. I had a clone-based deck in the works (using cards like Physical Double and Copy Magic to overwhelm the opponent with multiple clone monsters and magic/trap effects) and that combo was key in my strategy. What a waste.

 

[densetsu_x]

Sorry... the Mirage Token from "Physical Double" is pretty much there solely for the purpose of giving you 1 extra monster (to maybe trigger a replay so they won't attack you), give you something you can tribute for a summon (if you have "Ultimate Offering" running as well) or tribute for something else (like "Enemy Controller to take an opponent's face up monster) or destroy (like with "Ring of Destruction").

- Andrew

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

Hold on, I just thought of something: most monster tokens are able to stay on the field long after the card that summoned them has resolved and was sent to the graveyard, so technically, they don't need the card's effect to stay alive on the field. The card simply summons the tokens, not babysit them to make sure they don't get removed from play or anything. AND Physical Double's effect are twofold: summoning the monster with the same stats, attributes, etc. of the opponent's monster, and the destruction of said token at the end of the turn it's summoned. Those two effects are treated separately. So, by all logic, token monsters SHOULD be able to survive outside of the field temporarily by cards like Dimensionhole, since the card effects that summoned them do NOT linger afterwards (ie. the token's summoned, the card resolves, it's sent to the graveyard, token remains by it's own power), and the Mirage Token SHOULD be able to survive if Physical Double's second effect is negted by Royal Decree or something AFTER the resolution of its first effect (ie, the summoning of the token).

Frankly, there is just way too much overwhelming evidence that says that token monsters CAN survive temporarily outside of the field, and hardly any supporting the general consensus that they CAN'T. The tokens are considered monsters once they're summoned, they are able to survive on their own on the field without any help from the card effects that summoned them (which do NOT say that the tokens are destroyed if they leave the field, anyway), they are able to be targeted by cards like Dimensionhole, Cannon Solder, etc., just like monsters... In fact, the only real damning evidence that the tokens can NOT survive outside of the field is that they aren't cards and, therefore, cannot be moved to an area specifically meant for cards (ie. the hand, deck, or graveyard). The field and removed from play aren't in that category, to my knowledge, which gives FURTHER proof that tokens can survive temporarily outside of the field.

Is it possible to get a Netrep official on here to give us an exact ruling for token monsters in general? I still haven't found any official rulings on it (and, yes, I checked the official rulebook on Netrep: they don't have them, either), and I think an official statement on the ruling would help clear things up.

 

[densetsu_x]

As previously stated before, quoting from the UDE FAQ

Different Dimension Gate
Continuous Spell

Select 1 Monster Card each from you and your opponent's sides of the field and remove them from play. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard, return those monsters to the field in the same battle positions as when they were removed from play.

"¢ You can select a Monster Token when you activate "Different Dimension Gate", but the token is destroyed.

That is an official ruling, that a token that is removed from play is otherwise considered destroyed and will not return to the field.

- Andrew

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

As previously stated before, quoting from the UDE FAQ

Different Dimension Gate
Continuous Spell

Select 1 Monster Card each from you and your opponent's sides of the field and remove them from play. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard, return those monsters to the field in the same battle positions as when they were removed from play.

"¢ You can select a Monster Token when you activate "Different Dimension Gate", but the token is destroyed.

That is an official ruling, that a token that is removed from play is otherwise considered destroyed and will not return to the field.

- Andrew

Still, that makes no sense. There isn't any other card effects keeping the token monster alive on the field after it's summoned, and it's treated like a monster from right when it's summoned on. Pretty much, once a monster token is summoned, it IS a monster for all intents and purposes, with NO other card effect dictating how it's played (except for when the card that summons the tokens specifically state that the tokens it summons can't be used in a tribute summon). The tokens survive on their own accord after their summoning, without any support from any other card effects. So, the tokens should logically NOT be destroyed when removed from play temporarily by Dimensionhole and the like.

*shakes head* I do not get the logic in that ruling. There is pretty much NOTHING that supports it, and by all logic, the complete OPPOSITE of that ruling should be true. I would love to talk with a Netrep official and discuss this with him, try and figure out what logic there is behind such a ruling.

 

[spotsknight]

Hold on, I just thought of something: most monster tokens are able to stay on the field long after the card that summoned them has resolved and was sent to the graveyard, so technically, they don't need the card's effect to stay alive on the field. The card simply summons the tokens, not babysit them to make sure they don't get removed from play or anything. AND Physical Double's effect are twofold: summoning the monster with the same stats, attributes, etc. of the opponent's monster, and the destruction of said token at the end of the turn it's summoned. Those two effects are treated separately. So, by all logic, token monsters SHOULD be able to survive outside of the field temporarily by cards like Dimensionhole, since the card effects that summoned them do NOT linger afterwards (ie. the token's summoned, the card resolves, it's sent to the graveyard, token remains by it's own power), and the Mirage Token SHOULD be able to survive if Physical Double's second effect is negted by Royal Decree or something AFTER the resolution of its first effect (ie, the summoning of the token).

Actually a more accurate way to look at it is the tokens are manifestation of the lingering effect of the card that special summoned them. They don't stay there by their own power because they have no power. That is why they are considered Normal Monsters (for the purpose of Ceasefire etc). Any effect (or condition) that the tokens have is from the card that created it (ie Ojama tokens dealing damage when they are destroyed, Sheep Tokens not being able to be used for a tribute summon, etc) . So the evidence is actually against them surviving when removed from the field.

Spot's Knight

 

[krazykidpsx]

OKay to clear this up, ANYTHING that has to do with removing a token, from the field to anyware results in the token getting destroyed.

you use dimension hole, its destroyed, you use DD gate, its destroyed. etc...

Tokens are just Tokens. They arnt considered actuall cards and stuff. but that does lead to my own personal question.

Can Chaos Sorcerer Remove a Token out of play, or nay because its not a monster?

 

[helpoemer316]

A monster token is still considered to be a monster on the field, so yes you may remove a monster token with Chaos Sorcerer.

If you couldn't do that, than you most definitely wouldn't able to Dimension Hole/IMT a token either.

 

[krazykidpsx]

ah so very true. thanks for clearing this up.

 

[spotsknight]

Tokens are just Tokens. They arnt considered actuall cards and stuff. but that does lead to my own personal question.

Can Chaos Sorcerer Remove a Token out of play, or nay because its not a monster?

Any effect that can TARGET a Normal monster can target a Token. If the effect sends it to the Graveyard, then the Token is just removed. (note this sentence applies only to effects when they resolve, not to Costs paid when activated)

Costs that require a monster to be 'sent to the graveyard' cannot be paid with Tokens (ie Manticore of Darkness). If the Token has a Condition on it which prevents it from being used as a particular type of Cost, then you can not use that Token for the Cost (ie Sheep Tokens for  Tribute Summon).
Spot's Knight

 

[somewan]

Another fact that separates 'Normal Token Monsters' and 'Normal Monsters' is that they do not go to the Graveyard when they are destroyed, so cards like "Last Will" will be affected when a normal monster is destroyed but not when a token is.

Tokens also cannot turn face-down, like normal monsters can; yet another difference.

And, the topic of debate: if a normal monster is removed from the field, it may come back. Tokens will not.

For those who like seeing names, directly from the old judge list:

Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:32 pm
Subject: dimension fusion vs. scapegoats

When a monster token is removed from the field it ceases to exist. You cannot
Special Summon them with "Dimension Fusion" because of this.

---------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep


Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:46 am
Subject: Book of Moon vs Tokens

You cannot choose to activate a card if the card's effects cannot resolve.
Therefore Monster Tokens cannot be designated by Book of Moon.

Kevin Tewart
Game Developer
UDE Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D Lead
Upper Deck Entertainment

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

Hold on, I just thought of something: most monster tokens are able to stay on the field long after the card that summoned them has resolved and was sent to the graveyard, so technically, they don't need the card's effect to stay alive on the field. The card simply summons the tokens, not babysit them to make sure they don't get removed from play or anything. AND Physical Double's effect are twofold: summoning the monster with the same stats, attributes, etc. of the opponent's monster, and the destruction of said token at the end of the turn it's summoned. Those two effects are treated separately. So, by all logic, token monsters SHOULD be able to survive outside of the field temporarily by cards like Dimensionhole, since the card effects that summoned them do NOT linger afterwards (ie. the token's summoned, the card resolves, it's sent to the graveyard, token remains by it's own power), and the Mirage Token SHOULD be able to survive if Physical Double's second effect is negted by Royal Decree or something AFTER the resolution of its first effect (ie, the summoning of the token).

Actually a more accurate way to look at it is the tokens are manifestation of the lingering effect of the card that special summoned them. They don't stay there by their own power because they have no power. That is why they are considered Normal Monsters (for the purpose of Ceasefire etc). Any effect (or condition) that the tokens have is from the card that created it (ie Ojama tokens dealing damage when they are destroyed, Sheep Tokens not being able to be used for a tribute summon, etc) . So the evidence is actually against them surviving when removed from the field.

Spot's Knight

They are given power once they're summoned. They're considered monsters, then, and that gives them the power to survive on the field on their own without the aid of a card effect. The card just summons them; it's their status as monsters once they're summoned that keeps them alive. Any other effects to the tokens that the card that summons them gives them (like preventing them from being used in a tribute summon) are then considered conditions to the tokens, not effects.

If monster tokens are destroyed as soon as they're removed from play via cards like Dimensionhole, why don't they just write an errata saying that such cards can't target tokens? It would save us a ton of confusion. Also, why is it that only Different Dimension Gate has that ruling about tokens on it, and not any other temp remove from play cards? Could it be that the token remains out of play until DDG is destroyed, and not after a set amount of time like Dimensionhole or IMT?

The tokens are considered monsters once they're summoned, on or off the field. They are not 'lingering effects' of the card that summons them, since the card only summons them, not keeps them on the field. The fact that they're considered monsters AFTER they're summoned makes that possible, NOT the card that summons them (which, incidentally, resolves once the tokens are summoned, which is why the tokens aren't automatically destroyed if IO is activated after they're summoned). And, since there is no real ruling on token monsters in general posted on any official website (including their copy of the official rulebook), there really isn't any way to definitively prove or disprove either of our arguments.

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

Another fact that separates 'Normal Token Monsters' and 'Normal Monsters' is that they do not go to the Graveyard when they are destroyed, so cards like "Last Will" will be affected when a normal monster is destroyed but not when a token is.

Tokens also cannot turn face-down, like normal monsters can; yet another difference.

And, the topic of debate: if a normal monster is removed from the field, it may come back. Tokens will not.

For those who like seeing names, directly from the old judge list:

Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:32 pm
Subject: dimension fusion vs. scapegoats

When a monster token is removed from the field it ceases to exist. You cannot
Special Summon them with "Dimension Fusion" because of this.

---------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep


Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:46 am
Subject: Book of Moon vs Tokens

You cannot choose to activate a card if the card's effects cannot resolve.
Therefore Monster Tokens cannot be designated by Book of Moon.

Kevin Tewart
Game Developer
UDE Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D Lead
Upper Deck Entertainment

The tokens, once summoned, are considered normal monsters, even if they're still tokens, which means that, while unable to be sent to the graveyard or flipped face down like CARDS, they are still able to be affected by card effects that target monsters (unless the effect specifically excludes tokens, and those were first released in AST).

And, I think the ruling for Dimensional Fusion was meant only to include tokens sent out of play without the intention of being returned by the card effect that sent them there (ex. D.D. Warrior Lady removes a monster from the field. The removed monster isn't returned to the field by D.D.WL's effect. Dimensionhole, however, returns the monster it removes from play back to the field after a set period of time [during your next standby phase]).

Frankly, with all this confusion over temp remove from play cards and token monsters, I don't think either Konami, Upper Deck, or Netrep really though anyone would try to use such a combination to save their tokens. Their rulings on this combo doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, nor is there much of an explination as to WHY it is. There's a lot of technicalities when dealing with tokens (what cards can affect them, etc.), and a whole lot of loopholes and flaws in logic when dealing with them. Maybe they didn't really think that monster tokens to be a big part of the game, who knows? I just don't see a whole lot of method to this madness.

 

[SynjoDeonecros]

A monster token is still considered to be a monster on the field, so yes you may remove a monster token with Chaos Sorcerer.

If you couldn't do that, than you most definitely wouldn't able to Dimension Hole/IMT a token either.

Precisely. So, we know that those cards can still be used against tokens. The thing is, unlike Chaos Sorcerer, Dimensionhole and IMT return the monster it sends out of play back to the field. Hence, the confusion. If a monster token is able to be removed from play by Dimensionhole, shouldn't it also be brought back to the field by that same effect? It's still considered a monster for the intent and purpose of Dimensionhole's effect. If it was destroyed when it automatically gets sent out of play, then Dimensionhole would no longer have a valid target for the rest of its effect and, therefore, shouldn't be able to target the token in the first place.