Shifting Targets

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ChaosMachine

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I'm positve this has been covered I just cant find it. Its more to do with game mechanics. Like Smashing Ground and Silent Swordsman does its effect vanish or does it target the next possible monster. Also Bottomless Shift Sand and Wildheart...same situation. Does the effect diappear or pick the next possible target. Thanks Guys!
 
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Here's a 'kink' in the works...

I attack.
You activate "Sakuretsu Armor" targeting my attacking monster.
I chain with "Desert Sunlight".
No more chains.
Resolve chain...

My monsters are switched to Defense Position by "Desert Sunlight".
Will my monster be destroyed by "Sakuretsu Armor"? Yes it will.

"Sakuretsu Armor" only cares if the monster is attacking when it's activated. As long as that monster is still face-up on the field when "Sakuretsu Armor" resolves, then it's going to destroy that monster (provided it wasn't negated).
 
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skey23 said:
<snip>

"Sakuretsu Armor" only cares if the monster is attacking when it's activated. As long as that monster is still face-up on the field when "Sakuretsu Armor" resolves, then it's going to destroy that monster (provided it wasn't negated).
Click to expand...

Not completely true in similar situations...

I attack.
You activate "Sakuretsu Armor" targeting my attacking monster.
I chain with "Book of Moon" targeting my attacking monster.
No more chains.
Resolve chain...

My monster is switched to Face Down Defense Position by "Book of Moon".
Will my monster be destroyed by "Sakuretsu Armor"? No it won't. And my monster is considered to have attacked but the attack stopped. So, it still was an attacking monster and yet it is not destroyed by Sakuretsu Armor.

I IS SO CONFUSED! IS THERE NO LOGIC? HELP ME! HELP ME I SAY!
 
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Ok. You all need some major help, so here goes. If you attack and I activate Sakuretsu Armor and then you activate Book of Moon, your monster would go face down and Sakuretsu Armor would hit the Graveyard. Since Sakuretsu Armor was not misactivated, considering there was an attack, it is destroyed. Book of moon was activated second and in a chain, the last card resolves first so the monster would be flipped facedown, and Sakuretsu Armor would hit the Graveyard without destroying a target. Make sense?
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Actually Entropy, there's a whole different thing going on with the Samurai. It is not shifting the destruction of Mirror Force at all (otherwise, the destroyed Samurai would be destroyed by Mirror Force), rather, the Samurai that would be destroyed by Mirror force is using its own effect to destroy the Face-down Samurai to "purchase" (for lack of more convenient term) its own salvation. So Mirror Force is not destroying a Face-down Samurai (which would be illegal), rather the other Samurai is destroying the Face-down Samurai to save its own keister. Make sense?
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Be careful what you compare here. Face-down Six Samurai cannot be destroyed with the "Samurai substitution" effect.

doc
 
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this (BoM comparison) is because cards loose track of another that is flipped face down...it no longer has a name, type, level, atk / def etc so what ever was targeting it will "loose track" of it when it resolves. the player remembers, but usually the game does not..well except for demise and now levia dragon....i still want to know how that works...

edit - sorry - did not mean to imply they were the ONLY ones... were meant " as an example" sorry for the confusion dark logician...
 
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CUZ: Apparently with the exception of Thousand-Eyes Restrict and Relinquised, which, for some reason can equip themselves with Face-Down Monsters. But we digress once again.

DOC: Sorry, meant to say Defense position, editted, thanks.

To get us back on track, a quick Recap:

Nobody has a problem with Shift moving an attack from the intended "target" to another attack target, even if it would not normally be selectable by your opponent.

We do seem to have a discrepancy about whether targets of Spell/Trap cards can be shifted if the "new" target is not normally a legal one. Simon, who is nearly always correct, says sure, even an Equip card can be shifted to a Face-down card, the Equip card would then (to use my term) "fizzle". I, who am often wrong, say, no, it has to be a "legal" target.

Sakuretsu, seems to be a good test case on both fronts, as it has the question of whether the "new" target is legal, based on Sak's wording, and if it is a legal target, how would its effect resolve? To which, I say, the "new" target is not legal, so it cannot be activated. Simon says, actually, he didn't really commit here. Although he did focus on the terms "that card", he left it quite open. Hhmmm, Simon, you've been working to closely with the UDE guys, you're starting to pick up some habbits.

Nevertheless, nothing has been resolved, so far. Any other thoughts, examples, suggestions? At tourney's I have to rule Simon's way (he's my boss), so help a brother out.... ;)
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Sakuretsu, seems to be a good test case on both fronts, as it has the question of whether the "new" target is legal, based on Sak's wording, and if it is a legal target, how would its effect resolve? To which, I say, the "new" target is not legal, so it cannot be activated.
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But by the time you're activating Shift and changing the target, Sakuretsu Armor has long since been activated. Its activation can't be taken back now (except by Vanity's Call, which is irrelevant here), especially not because its target is now illegal (if it even is illegal).

I would suggest that since Shift does not specify "to another legal target" then you can use it to point the targeting effect at an illegal target. However, it's an older card, and may not have the absolute proper wording. On the first hand again, though, there are no rulings associated with Shift to say "legal targets only", which should imply that illegal targets are fine too.
 
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Whether it is Simon Keys or Simon Sangpukdee, 2 highly respected L3 judges, I too am accustomed to doing what "Simon Says"...

Skey23 will be the first to tell you that his ruling with Shift is his interpretation and not a FAQ ruling which he has pretty well memorized. The ruling with Command Knight suggests we could use any other target; however, that ruling may be correct because the opponent did not choose the target, the Shift activator did.

DLoC, I'm inclined more to rule likewise to your interpretation and would quote Fairy's Hand Mirror which specifically states that when switching the target monster, the new target must be a correct target.

Again, this is my interpretation. It is not a ruling that I am aware of.

doc
 
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I just wanted to post this (I only have 1 minuite to do so) But yesterday when I was playing the video game YGO World Championship 2007, I attacked with a Goblin Attack force, my opponent activated Magic Cylinder (similar to Sak) and I used Shift. My two VALID targets were a face down monster, and Big eye, but I chose Big Eye without thinking of the other one, and I only took the 1200 dmg. I believe GAF's attack was still negated though. WEIRD...
 
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The more I think about this the more I think that you can Shift Sakurestu to a different face-up target and when resolving that Sakuretsu would NOT destroy the new target. Why? Because when you resolve Sakuretsu you "Destroy the attacking monster." and now the new target is NOT attacking so it fizzles. The Nobleman of Crossout / Book of Moon ruling supports this thinking as when you resolve NoC you check to see if the monster is in the face-down position and if not, it fizzles.

Thoughts?
 
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skey23 said:
"Sakuretsu Armor" only cares if the monster is attacking when it's activated. As long as that monster is still face-up on the field when "Sakuretsu Armor" resolves, then it's going to destroy that monster (provided it wasn't negated).
Click to expand...

Can't get any clearer than that, targetting effects look for their initial targets, regardless.
 
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Thanks Simon, one last question to Curtis' answer #3: Is it correct to say that the reason you can select Command Knight or Solar Flare Dragon is because you, the owner of Command Knight or Solar Flare Dragon, is selecting it as the target and not your opponent? Or other reason?
 
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SoilentG said:
Is it correct to say that the reason you can select Command Knight or Solar Flare Dragon is because you, the owner of Command Knight or Solar Flare Dragon, is selecting it as the target and not your opponent?
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Sounds like the right reason to me, from what I know.

It's interesting that Command Knight says your opponent cannot declare it as an attack target (implying you can, but obviously only through a card effect like Shift), but that Solar Flare Dragon says it cannot be attacked, period. Solar Flare Dragon seems to be a legal attack target (since it can be Shifted to), even though its effect states otherwise.

This is certainly a wording problem. But what should it say? "Your opponent cannot declare this card as an attack target", as per Command Knight (letting the game mechanics say you can't make it an attack target either, and that only through a card effect can it become on)?
 
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