Shrink vs Megamorph

[Chillout1984]

What happens when you play Shrink on a monster equipped with Megamorph?

Example:
Doom Dozer is equipped with Megamorph (player with Megamorph has less LP than the other player) so he has 5600 ATK.

During the damage step Shrink is activated on him, what would be his ATK?

I think that since Shrink doubles the original ATK and megamorph halves it, they counter each other thus leaving Doom Dozer with 2800 ATK.

Another person believes that you must reduce the 1400 from shrink from the 5600 leaving Doom Dozer with 4200.

Which of us is right, or is there some other answer?

 

[Maruno]

As I understand it, you apply effects that modify original ATK, then you apply Megamorph, then you apply effects that modify current ATK.

So Shrink would halve the original ATK (to 1400), but then Megamorph doubles it back to 2800.

If Megamorph is also halving ATK, then your Doom Dozer would have 700 ATK (half of half of 2800).

 

[slither]

I would think you were right, both check Original Attack, I mind to say it would all refer to what the last effect to resolve would be monitored.

 

[Deathjester]

This ends up with the same result as Maruno's explanation but I think Megamorph would be applied first and then Shrink. The attack modification from Megamorph becomes the new original ATK. So in this case, the original ATK of Doom Dozer becomes 5600. Shrink then changes that to 2800.

 

[HorusMaster]

This ends up with the same result as Maruno's explanation but I think Megamorph would be applied first and then Shrink. The attack modification from Megamorph becomes the new original ATK. So in this case, the original ATK of Doom Dozer becomes 5600. Shrink then changes that to 2800.

Shrink is a Spell Speed 2 and it's effect would apply first. You cannot apply the effect of a Spell Speed 1 card such as Megamorph in a chain after Shrink is activated. Megamorph's effect would activate first in the chain.

Link 1: Megamorph modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 5600
Link 2: Shrink activates

Resolve:
Link 2: Shrink modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 1400
Link 1: Megamorph modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 2800

End result: Doom Dozer is left with a 2800 ATK

 

[mortals]

Shrink is a Spell Speed 2 and it's effect would apply first. You cannot apply the effect of a Spell Speed 1 card such as Megamorph in a chain after Shrink is activated. Megamorph's effect would activate first in the chain.

Link 1: Megamorph modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 5600
Link 2: Shrink activates

Resolve:
Link 2: Shrink modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 1400
Link 1: Megamorph modifies the attack of Doom Dozer to 2800

End result: Doom Dozer is left with a 2800 ATK

Spell Speeds have nothing to do with this question and Megamorph is a continuous modifier and does not go on the chain

 

[Maruno]

I determined what I said from the fact that Megamorph will recalculate the boost it gives if the original ATK is changed (Goblin King, for example). I also remember hearing somewhere that Megamorph is always the very last "thing that modifies original ATK" to apply. Therefore Shrink would come first, so it would be halved then doubled (or halved and then halved again).

 

[densetsu_x]

Actually unless it's in a chain where Megamorph was activated and Shrink chained to it, Megamorph applies its modification before anything else.

Keep in mind that we're going to go around in circles again on this debate since that's what we seem to do whenever Megamorph is brought into any discussion because the rulings are not all consistant. And as such, I'm not getting involved... I don't need the headache.

 

[Digital Jedi]

You know, I was going to start a thread on the subject of Original ATK modifiers as related to Megamorph and Shrink. I've been pouring over the rulings lately, and have some interesting discoveries to share. I may still do this, but suffice it to say, one of the things I found when looking them over is that Megamorph is not the inconsistent card in the Original ATK rulings. It's actually a card that does not modify Original ATK at all that seems to be the one consistent culprit in the event of inconsistencies. Yet, it is a card that is consistently ruled with the same inconsistency. So one wonders if it's an inconsistency at all, or a mistranslation of card intent.

But I'll get into that another time. From what I've read, it doesn't appear that outside Original ATK modifiers look at each other's modifications, hence the reason why multiple Megamorphs don't stack on top of each other. From that point of view, Shrink is going to look at the same stat that Megamorph is basing it's calculations off of. Even so, Megamorph is a continuous modifier, and doesn't allow another effect to superimpose its will upon it, even another Megamorph. So Doom Dozer is going to stay doubled in the original scenario, until there is a shift in Life Points or until its destroyed or negated.

 

[masterwoo0]

Depending on the order of Activation, if you activate Shrink first on Doom Dozer, and allow it to resolve, he will be at 1400, and then equip Megamorph, Megamorph will look at the Original ATK of 2800 and increase it to 5600, and it will stay at 5600 since Shrink does not create a "new" original ATK, just a new ATK, and Megamorph only modifies the Original ATK, not current.

The other way around also has no effect, as any effect that attempts to change the original ATK should cause Megamorph to recalculate.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

The other way around also has no effect, as any effect that attempts to change the original ATK should cause Megamorph to recalculate.

No effect? Shrink's effect goes until the end of the turn. What happened to Last effect overriding previous? I mean, look at the ruling for Karate Man:

"¢ [Re: Karate Man] If "Karate Man" is equipped with "Megamorph" and its ATK is being halved, if you then activate its effect, its ATK is 2000. If you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are greater than your opponent's, its ATK is 500. If "Karate Man" is equipped with "Megamorph" and you activate its effect, or if you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are less than your opponent's, its ATK is 2000.

Let's break this down: Megamorph takes Karate Man's 1000 ATK and halves it to 500, then Karate Man's effect "doubles the Original Attack" (which it interprets as 1000), therefore, making it 2000. If Megamorph truely recalculates, as you say, then Instantly Karate Man's ATK should recalculate to 500. But it Doesn't, by this ruling. Shrink does the same thing. It looks to the Original Attack and cuts it in half, regardless of the already equipped Megamorph.

Before I read this, I always called it a wash...Let one double and the other halve. Karate Man seems to change that.

 

[Oceanus]

I've finally accepted a way in which this situation works that I've listened to.

What I've heard, is that neither "Shrink" nor "Megamorph" actually change the original attack of a monster card, they simply take it, and make a new modified ATK from it.

The result in this situation, if your opponen't lp is higher, is "Megamorph" looks at the Original ATK of 2800, and doubles it for a new modified ATK of 5600. "Shrink", takes the Original ATK of 2800, and halves it to 1400. So basically all that happens is the reduction of 1400, thus becoming 5600-1400= 4200 ATK.

It makes sense to me. The reason they don't actually change the Original ATK, I'm told, is because the wording doesn't say the O. ATK "becomes" anything, unlike Fusilier, whose effect does state that.

 

[masterwoo0]

No effect? Shrink's effect goes until the end of the turn. What happened to Last effect overriding previous? I mean, look at the ruling for Karate Man:

"¢ [Re: Karate Man] If "Karate Man" is equipped with "Megamorph" and its ATK is being halved, if you then activate its effect, its ATK is 2000. If you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are greater than your opponent's, its ATK is 500. If "Karate Man" is equipped with "Megamorph" and you activate its effect, or if you activate its effect and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are less than your opponent's, its ATK is 2000.

Let's break this down: Megamorph takes Karate Man's 1000 ATK and halves it to 500, then Karate Man's effect "doubles the Original Attack" (which it interprets as 1000), therefore, making it 2000. If Megamorph truely recalculates, as you say, then Instantly Karate Man's ATK should recalculate to 500. But it Doesn't, by this ruling. Shrink does the same thing. It looks to the Original Attack and cuts it in half, regardless of the already equipped Megamorph.

Before I read this, I always called it a wash...Let one double and the other halve. Karate Man seems to change that.

You could be right. But I think the first instance where either player's life points cause a change to affect Megamorph during that turn, it will recalculate and wipe out Shrinks effect.

 

[Maruno]

The result in this situation, if your opponen't lp is higher, is "Megamorph" looks at the Original ATK of 2800, and doubles it for a new modified ATK of 5600. "Shrink", takes the Original ATK of 2800, and halves it to 1400. So basically all that happens is the reduction of 1400, thus becoming 5600-1400= 4200 ATK.

This is not a logical conclusion. You're only dealing with doubling and halving. There's no subtracting involved.



I think (read: I'm trying to explain what I'm seeing) there are three categories of modifiers, that are looked at and applied in order:
1. Cards that set original ATK
2. Cards that modify original ATK (but the resultant is NOT the original ATK)
3. Cards that set/modify ATK

Megamorph and Shrink fall under category 2. An explanation would be that only the most recent category 2 card applies, for as long as that card does apply (in the case of Shrink, until the end of the turn; then the next newest category 2 card applies - Megamorph). This explains Karate Man (when he uses his effect, Megamorph is ignored, and the original 1000 is doubled). And by this, Doom Dozer would have 1400 ATK (since Shrink is the newest effect, and only it applies) until the end of the turn; at which point Megamorph would apply again to make 5600 ATK (assuming it's still doubling).

Also note that category 3 cards that set ATK have the last possible say regardless of what's going on.

But...

"¢ If you equip "Megamorph" to "Arsenal Bug" then its ATK will be 4000 or 1000, depending on "Megamorph"'s effect.

Arsenal Bug sets the ATK and DEF to be 500, so it should ignore the effect of Megamorph entirely. Why doesn't it? Oddball ruling?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

You could be right. But I think the first instance where either player's life points cause a change to affect Megamorph during that turn, it will recalculate and wipe out Shrinks effect.

Oh, I concur wholeheartedly there.

Arsenal Bug sets the ATK and DEF to be 500, so it should ignore the effect of [url="http://www.cogonline.net/showthread.php?p=167656#"][url="http://www.cogonline.net/showthread.php?p=167656#"][url="http://www.cogonline.net/showthread.php?p=167656#"]Megamorph[/url][/url][/url] entirely. Why doesn't it? Oddball ruling?

Well, Arsenal Bug's new ATK/DEF are not "original" so when Megamorph applies, it looks to the original ATK and changes it. But you are right, if there were insects other than Arsenal Bug on the field while equipped with Megamorph, but they are removed so that Arsenal Bug is alone, why doesn't the activating effect (more like a condition) of Arsenal Bug, then override that of Megamorph...Interesting: Megamorph cannot be overridden by Arsenal Bug's condition, but it can by Karate Man's Ignition effect. Although the rulings doesn't say specifically what would happen in Arsenal Bug's specific situation (of becoming alone on the field), an argument from silence is very week here.

 

[Oceanus]

In my problem, there was no subtraction, that was just to show an easy way of the outcome.
In this problem, the bold is the original ATK. It represents what I think of with "Megamorph" doubling and "Shrink" halving.
2800x2= 2800+2800 (or 5600)
2800/2+2800= 2800+1400 (or 4200)
In both of these, the original ATK never changes, but it is used to develop new ATK. It is logical, and the right side represents an easy way to look at it. Anyway, that's what I think, no subtraction actually involved in my reasoning.

 

[Maruno]

In my problem, there was no subtraction, that was just to show an easy way of the outcome.
In this problem, the bold is the original ATK. It represents what I think of with "Megamorph" doubling and "Shrink" halving.
2800x2= 2800+2800 (or 5600)
2800/2+2800= 2800+1400 (or 4200)
In both of these, the original ATK never changes, but it is used to develop new ATK. It is logical, and the right side represents an easy way to look at it. Anyway, that's what I think, no subtraction actually involved in my reasoning.

But it isn't logical. You're interpreting the cards incorrectly.

You have one card that halves. You have another card that either halves, doubles or does nothing. Combining these two leads to either quartering, halving or nothing. You apply one after the other, NOT simultaneously (if you even apply them both at all).

Getting to 4200 involves multiplying by three quarters. That's not possible. You do NOT compare the differences in the values caused by each card effect, and then add them up. You simply halve or double the original ATK, and by that logic only the last card effect to have resolves should matter (Shrink - 1400 ATK). Compare with multiple Megamorphs - they don't stack, so it makes sense that only the last one to resolve (time stamping) has an effect. Shrink is pretty much exactly the same, I think.

I don't know what the correct ruling is. I only know that what you're thinking of is wrong.



Another odd ruling:

"¢ If "Chaos Necromancer" is equipped with "Megamorph", its ATK is zero, but if "Megamorph" leaves play, recalculate the ATK of "Chaos Necromancer" using his effect.

Chaos Necromancer modifies current ATK. It should have the last say. Why, then, does the equipment of Megamorph make it 0?

 

[Oceanus]

It would seem according to that way of thought, that they both endlessly try to recalculate each other endlessly, because I know both of those cards continuously check and recalculate >.<. Reminds me of a monster with 2 "Megamorph"s, one from you, and one from your opponent.

 

[HorusMaster]

It would seem according to that way of thought, that they both endlessly try to recalculate each other endlessly, because I know both of those cards continuously check and recalculate >.<. Reminds me of a monster with 2 "Megamorph"s, one from you, and one from your opponent.

Shrink's effect is continous until the end of the turn and since it was activated, it will recalculate the ATK of the monster ONCE. Since it was activated in the chain after Megamorph, it will resolve before Megamorph. It takes the original attack of the monster and halves it, thus modifying and CREATING A NEW original ATK for that monster. After that, since Megamorph is a continous effect, it tries and recalculates the ATK of the monster after Shrink resolves. Depending on the lifepoint situation, it will either double the ATK or halve it again. Regardless of who activates and controls Megamorph, two Megamorphs CANNOT stack upon each other and double the effect.

 

[slither]

Chaos Necromancer modifies current ATK. It should have the last say. Why, then, does the equipment of Megamorph make it 0?

Similar to Satellite Cannon, Original Atk = 0, Megamorph has no effect.