Silent Swordsman LV5's Effect

masterwoo0

masterwoo0

NINJA4LIFE
Another bone of contention...

Recently we have heard disturbingly enough, that Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 could in fact be selected for the effect of Creature Swap if it was the only existing monster on the opponents side of the field.

The kicker was, the effect would not resolve corectly and thus "Disappear" because Horus LV6 is unaffected by Spell Cards.


NOW THEN.... This is a question posted to the Judge's List about Silent Swordsman LV5 on March 16, almost a full month ago (apparently AGES in Yugioh Time....):


I need to what would happen in this scenario:

Amy has one monster on the field, no magic or traps
Bender has two monsters on the field and one of them is "Silent Swordsman LV5".

Amy plays "Creature Swap" so both players will select one monster on their field. Amy selects her only monster and Bender selects "Silent Swordsman LV5" instead of the other monster he has. Is this possible? and would the effect of "Creature Swap" Disappear if "Silent Swordsman LV5" is choosen instead of the other monster?

Thanks You



Answer:

That is not possible.

Bender would not be able to select "Silent Swordsman LV5" because it is unaffected by his opponent's Spell Cards. He would have to choose his other monster.


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(and knowing Bender, he'd try anyways... just to see if he gets away with it)
 
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Amy plays "Creature Swap" so both players will select one monster on their field. Amy selects her only monster and Bender selects "Silent Swordsman LV5" instead of the other monster he has. Is this possible? and would the effect of "Creature Swap" Disappear if "Silent Swordsman LV5" is choosen instead of the other monster?
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The Horus ruling changes that.

You can indeed select Swordsman LV5, and the effect will be negated.

This is how it should have worked from the beginning.
 
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When Amy activated Creature Swap, there were 2 valid targets. For Creature Swap, both Player "must" submit a monster "if" possible. You cannot select Silent Swordsman Lv5 for the 2 reasons listed:

- Bender has 1 monster that is "able" to be submitted
- You cannot force an effect to resolve incorrectly by the time of resolution when it "can" resolve correctly.

You can say that's how Creature Swap works, you must submit a monster "if" possible.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
When Amy activated Creature Swap, there were 2 valid targets. For Creature Swap, both Player "must" submit a monster "if" possible. You cannot select Silent Swordsman LV5 for the 2 reasons listed:

- Bender has 1 monster that is "able" to be submitted
- You cannot force an effect to resolve incorrectly by the time of resolution when it "can" resolve correctly.

You can say that's how Creature Swap works, you must submit a monster "if" possible.
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Now see, that's the confusion we are going to have happen until this "new" ruling about Horus LV6 has spread throughout the Yugioh TCG.

Because Horus is just "unaffected" by spells, you can indeed select him for Creature Swap. And since Silent Swordsman is virtually the same, it applies to him as well.

Suddenly, it's like everything we thought we knew as correct is being drastically changed, but the only way we find these new changes out is by hammering boards like this one with meaningful discussions about mechanics vs effects vs rulings.
 
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The fact that they are allowing the activation to occur even if the only avaliable monster is unaffected kind of throws the whole "valid monster" idea out the window.

Just as Smashing Ground will attempt to destroy an unaffected monster at resolution and fail (even if there is another monster that can be affected), i would think that you could select a monster like Horus and negate the effect.

Of course just my thoughts
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
As I said, if you are "able" to and "if" it is "possible" you are "obligated" to submit a valid target.

That's how Creature Swap works.
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But again, according to the new ruling on Horus LV6, you can have a full field of monsters, and STILL select Horus LV6 and the effect will not resolve only because Horus LV6 is just unaffected by Spell Cards. It doesnt say on his text that he "can't" be selected for the effect, it just says he is unaffected by whatever Spell Card that activates and either affects the whole field, or targets him specifically.
 
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novastar said:
The fact that they are allowing the activation to occur even if the only avaliable monster is unaffected kind of throws the whole "valid monster" idea out the window.

Just as Smashing Ground will attempt to destroy an unaffected monster at resolution and fail (even if there is another monster that can be affected), i would think that you could select a monster like Horus and negate the effect.

Of course just my thoughts
Click to expand...

I may have missed the point about validation for Creature Swap to be activated. But yes if Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 is the only monster on the field, it does not prevent a player from activating Creature Swap.

There's a difference here between Creature Swap and Smashing Ground. You are obligated to swap a valid monster for the effect for Creature Swap if possible. But that statement doesn't mean Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 can't be targetted by other effects of Spells like Change of Heart. You can still target Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6 with Change of Heart, but when Change of Heart resolves it will have no effect as Horus the Black Flame Drafgon Lv6 is unaffected.
 
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Also, this may or may not help, but look at Creature Swap's wording:
"Both players select 1 monster on their respective sides of the field..."

It doesn't say "Each player selects 1 monster on their fields that may have it's control changed", it's just not like that

Creature swap itself doesn't put limitations on what cards can be selected for it...

okay, that was way too literal ^_^

-chaosruler
 
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"You are obligated to swap a valid monster for the effect for Creature Swap if possible."

There is really nothing to suggest that. The older rulings do agree with this statement, but the new ruling seem to throw a monkey wrench into it.

Don't forget, something like Smashing Ground is not optional either. The main difference being that it chooses the monster for you.

The only obligation i see with Creature Swap is that you choose a monster on your side of the field.

I'm not suggesting that i'm right, because we haven't been given enough info yet to really know how it would work.

That's why i think its a good question for the board.
 
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I think this ruling may help to clarify things:

When you select "Guardian Kay'est" or "The Legendary Fisherman" as a target of "Different Dimension" gate, only the other monster is removed and returns to the field when "Different Dimension Gate" is destroyed.

Each monster mentioned is unaffected by Spell Cards but apparently they can be selected for the effect of Spell Cards. I would think "unaffected by" would be different from "this card can not be the target of" Spell Cards.
 
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In addition, there is no indication from those rulings that you cannot select them if they are the only monster on that side of the field. Just that they can be selected but are unaffected.
 
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for this card you have to use the same restrictions that Mataza the Zapper and Blindly Loyal Goblin have.

they are illegal targets if they cannot switch over.

horus basically is loyal.
silent is basically loyal.

when Creature Swap plays you cannot choose an illegal target.

the reason why you can pick them is because Silent Swordsman LV 5 is very much valid target when the owner activates Creatureswap, but not when the opponent plays it.
 
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Let´s put the things this way.

In the text of the card it says that both players must select a monster. So, if you select a monster that can be switch control, it is a legal monster to select. But, when if says that it is unnafected by magics, ANY OF THEM, the effect on him doesn´t occur.

You can´t compare silent/horus with mataza/goblin, because they have an effect that dont let you switch monsters. So, it can be used, but it wont work. You can use Change of Hearts, or Snatch Steal, but it remains in the place he must be.

Negate and unnafect are different things.

So what happens? Is it: active creature, both players choose a monster, the horus/silent selected are unnafected by this card, but the opponent must give you a monster.

These cards are the one to happens it, so, dont say so damn things.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I think this ruling may help to clarify things:

When you select "Guardian Kay'est" or "The Legendary Fisherman" as a target of "Different Dimension" gate, only the other monster is removed and returns to the field when "Different Dimension Gate" is destroyed.

Each monster mentioned is unaffected by Spell Cards but apparently they can be selected for the effect of Spell Cards. I would think "unaffected by" would be different from "this card can not be the target of" Spell Cards.
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Bingo!..I think DJ here hit it right on the head! Even though both monsters are unaffected by Spell Cards, they can still be targeted by spell cards, but the effect that involves them will not 'take hold', so to speak.
 
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No this is a different scenario, we are talking about choosing at resolution. Targeting is a different issue all together. The ruling doesn't help.

The problem is that a monster "unaffected" by Spell Cards is not affected by a Spell Card's resolution on it, so it is odd to say that you could choose SLV5 during Creature Swap's resolution.

But you can... and why? because the selection is technically not a part of the actual "effect"

This is why Creature Swap should have been ruled as a targeted effect right from the beginning.
 
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