Situation for thought

[John Danker]

Every once in a while I come across a situation that could be ruled numerous ways with each way being justified. When this happens I like to throw it out just to see how different people view it and so that others can think it through before faced with the scenario"¦

Deck sheets are collected at registration and if the fusion deck box or side deck box is empty the player is asked, "No fusion deck? No side deck? If not, the appropriate box is X'ed out.
In opening announcements it's been made clear that nothing that isn't needed to complete the match should remain on the table. All food, drink, binders, etc. should be off the table.

It's announced that fusion decks and side decks need to be on the table at all times during the match or they will be disallowed for use.

When I do deck checks if the deck box is on the table I collect it as well.

In round 4 of 7 a deck check is done. P1 matches up fine in main deck and side deck, however, he has one fusion monster in his deck box. A judge approaches me and says this same player has a pile of fusion monster on the table as well. I tell the judge to bring them to me.

P2 matches up fine in main deck and side deck, however, there are 13-15 extra cards in his deck box, 2 of which are in the same sleeves as the rest of his deck, the remainder of the cards are without sleeves. The "extra" cards don't appear to have come from perhaps a newly opened pack, they're from different sets and include cards such as D. D. Crow and Gravity Bind (both of which were sleeved) and an assortment of other cards unsleeved.

You now go back to give the players at their respective decks, how do you proceed?

 

[HorusMaster]

Every once in a while I come across a situation that could be ruled numerous ways with each way being justified. When this happens I like to throw it out just to see how different people view it and so that others can think it through before faced with the scenario"¦

Deck sheets are collected at registration and if the fusion deck box or side deck box is empty the player is asked, "No fusion deck? No side deck? If not, the appropriate box is X'ed out.
In opening announcements it's been made clear that nothing that isn't needed to complete the match should remain on the table. All food, drink, binders, etc. should be off the table.

It's announced that fusion decks and side decks need to be on the table at all times during the match or they will be disallowed for use.

When I do deck checks if the deck box is on the table I collect it as well.

In round 4 of 7 a deck check is done. P1 matches up fine in main deck and side deck, however, he has one fusion monster in his deck box. A judge approaches me and says this same player has a pile of fusion monster on the table as well. I tell the judge to bring them to me.

P2 matches up fine in main deck and side deck, however, there are 13-15 extra cards in his deck box, 2 of which are in the same sleeves as the rest of his deck, the remainder of the cards are without sleeves. The "extra" cards don't appear to have come from perhaps a newly opened pack, they're from different sets and include cards such as D. D. Crow and Gravity Bind (both of which were sleeved) and an assortment of other cards unsleeved.

You now go back to give the players at their respective decks, how do you proceed?

I would give them both warnings for procedural errors and admonish them to put ANY cards that are not listed on their deck sheet away so as to not confuse them with cards listed for play. I would also consider having a judge watch their match and the one following it to insure that those cards are not being used for play. If they are, it would constitute a disqualification for cheating.

 

[roadhouse007]

I agree. Keeping an eye on these players might be a good idea. When giving the decks back notify them they are getting a warning and need to remove the extra cards from the deckbox as to not confuse them with the cards in their actual main, fusion, and side decks. If they are seen trying to use those cards in a later round, it is obviously cheating and should be treated as such. DQ without prize.

 

[masterwoo0]

Before any event I play in, I check my cards in my Deck Box, as I occasionally place packs, etc...in it at the end of a previous event and forget to remove them.

You don't "accidently" have cards with the same sleeves in your Deck Box when you make a Deck List that doesnt include them. Sounds fishy.

 

[John Danker]

As I said, there are multiple ways this could have been addressed. Mine was this though...

P1 was asked at registration if he had a Fusion deck and answered "No" Technically he had a legal deck and an illegal deck list (fusion deck wasn't listed) He was not allowed to use his Fusion deck for the remainder of the tournament.

P2 Had a legal deck and side deck that matched his deck list, however he had 'extra" cards in his deck box ALONG with his legal deck and side deck, 2 of the "extra" cards were in sleeves identical to his deck. I ruled this as having more than a 15 card side deck and issued a game loss for illegal deck.

P2 was upset that his opponent didn't also recieve a game loss. Understandably so, however, he would have been upset regardless of weather his opponent got a game loss in addition to his or not.

 

[kbs8014]

As I said, there are multiple ways this could have been addressed. Mine was this though...

P1 was asked at registration if he had a Fusion deck and answered "No" Technically he had a legal deck and an illegal deck list (fusion deck wasn't listed) He was not allowed to use his Fusion deck for the remainder of the tournament.

P2 Had a legal deck and side deck that matched his deck list, however he had 'extra" cards in his deck box ALONG with his legal deck and side deck, 2 of the "extra" cards were in sleeves identical to his deck. I ruled this as having more than a 15 card side deck and issued a game loss for illegal deck.

P2 was upset that his opponent didn't also recieve a game loss. Understandably so, however, he would have been upset regardless of weather his opponent got a game loss in addition to his or not.

I would have ruled differently...

P1: If a player uses any cards that are not listed on the decklist (ie: fusion monsters) then they have an illegal deck. The deck list was a legal one in your example. There is nothing wrong with not listing a fusion deck. If P1 was using a fusion deck I would have given him a game loss for an illegal deck. I agree with you on not allowing him to use the fusion deck for the remainder of the tourney though.

P2: If P2 clearly had his main deck and side deck out on the table I would have given him a warning and an explaination of why extra cards should not be kept in the deck box. I think a game loss for this was not necessary.

 

[HorusMaster]

I would have ruled differently...

P1: If a player uses any cards that are not listed on the decklist (ie: fusion monsters) then they have an illegal deck. The deck list was a legal one in your example. There is nothing wrong with not listing a fusion deck. If P1 was using a fusion deck I would have given him a game loss for an illegal deck. I agree with you on not allowing him to use the fusion deck for the remainder of the tourney though.

P2: If P2 clearly had his main deck and side deck out on the table I would have given him a warning and an explaination of why extra cards should not be kept in the deck box. I think a game loss for this was not necessary.

I agree...if you give P2 a game loss for an "illegal" side deck, then the same game loss must be given to P1 for an "illegal" fusion deck. Both players had cards either on the table or in their deck box that were not listed on their deck list. Issue a warning or a game loss but the same must be for both players.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

You check to see if p1 has any way to bring out any of the fusion monsters. If they don't you give them a warning and instruct the player to remove the fusions. If he does, since it is round 4, you give him a game loss and instruct him to remove the fusions.


As for player 2, ask his/her previous round opponents if they remember seing of the mentioned cards after side decking. If you become confident they have cheated disqualify them. however, tournament policy instructs us to assume the best of players, so if you have no evidence to cheating then you issue a game loss and explain the implications of what has occured to the player. After which, instruct your judges to keep an eye on that player for the remainder of the event.

 

[Maruno]

You check to see if p1 has any way to bring out any of the fusion monsters. If they don't you give them a warning and instruct the player to remove the fusions. If he does, since it is round 4, you give him a game loss and instruct him to remove the fusions.

I'm going to suggest that's irrelevant. See Fusion Guard, Memory Crusher and Success Probability 0%.

 

[John Danker]

I respect and appreciate everyone's opinion...that's why I put it up, so everyone could give there opinion...however, I think some of you are missing a couple of points...

Answer these questions according to the current tournament penalty guidelines...
1. Is P1's deck legal? (Yes)
2. Is P1's deck list illegal (No)
3. What is the penalty for an illegal deck list? (Warning)

P2's situation isn't as cut and dry (in my opinion) It is my point of view that additional identically sleeved cards in with the side deck is too great of a coincidence. If the additional cards looked like they had just been pulled from a pack and all unsleeved that would have likely caused me to give a warning, if the cards were (in my opinion) of little value to help the deck or to counter the local meta then I would have also likely given a warning, however, the two cards sleeved identically were of great merit and additional unsleeved cards were as well.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

it is not impossible for those cards to have been previous inclusions in the side deck. Sometimes at locals If there are alot of cards that I want to fit into my side deck I will seperate the cards in my side deck from the ones I want in my side deck via my goat tokens. Obviously this wouldn't be ok at a regional, and it could be this player didn't know better.

 

[John Danker]

it is not impossible for those cards to have been previous inclusions in the side deck. Sometimes at locals If there are alot of cards that I want to fit into my side deck I will seperate the cards in my side deck from the ones I want in my side deck via my goat tokens. Obviously this wouldn't be ok at a regional, and it could be this player didn't know better.

It is indeed possible that this player didn't know any better...a lot of things are possible in many situations. It's possible that in a deck that has a marked pattern that it's a freak thing...or it's possible that it's someone trying to cheat, however, we have to at some point make a determination of where we're going to draw the line at "possibilities" and penalize players when the circumstances give overwhelming "possibilities" to cheat.

Let's go about this in another way. Let's say for purposes of argument that you did a deck check and a player had two cards one behind the other in a sleeve in their deck or side deck. Would someone as a judge assume that the player was just "storing" extra cards? Would a judge assume the player didn't know any better? Is it possible that the player didn't like their cards feeling "floppy" and that the player thought that their valuable card would wear better if it had a stiffer backing?....yes, all these things are "possible" but I think it's safe to assume that the vast majority of judges wouldn't opt for giving this player a warning. The "possibility" of cheating here is far too great. The situation for P2 I've described I see as being not too far from what I've described. The "possibility" for cheating is too great and shouldn't be let off with just a warning.

 

[masterwoo0]

The problem is, these boards and these type of threads give players the knowledge they need to try to "play" on a Judge's desire to go with a lower penalty most times.

They know that the chances are always there that they can take a lesser penalty if they "seem like" they didnt know they did something wrong. What usually happens is, because we do talk about things we see, and at times share this information with other Judges, often times we start to see a pattern develop among the same players who "got away" with a warning the first time.

Certainly we all know the names of players who eventually found there way onto the Suspension List for trying their luck once to often, but this just goes to show that without a stiffer "first time" penalty, players are willing to risk it if they know that a Judge is just going to give a warning versus a Game Loss or higher.

 

[ygo doc]

OK, remember you asked for comments, so here's mine:

First, when deckchecking players, I always like to wait until both players have shuffled their decks and then presented their decks to their opponents for randomization. At that time, I will stop both players and ask the players to hand me their decks, side decks and fusion decks and carefully watch where and what they give to me. When handing me side decks or fusion decks, those decks must come from the table, not a deck box. If the side and fusion decks don't come from open spots on the table, that player will already receive a penalty albeit it may be just a warning. Handing me a side deck in an open deck box is a definite no no. If you do that, I want your entire Deck box too. If any cards are still left on the table, I will ask what those specific cards are. I do NOT grab the deck box, but will take it if the player offers it to me. Players may ONLY play with the cards they place out on the table. If your opponent ever reaches back into his deck box to retrieve a card, call a judge immediately!

With that said, P1 has a LEGAL DECKLIST, but an ILLEGAL DECK, because he has Fusion cards out on the table that aren't listed on the Deck list. This is the same situation if he had 41 cards in his Deck, but only 40 cards listed in his Deck list. Penalty here is a game loss. I have to admit this type scenario was somewhat nebulous in the past, but L3's know there will be some changes in upcoming policy to clarify this.

If you as a judge clearly believe this was a situation with an ILLEGAL DECKLIST, but LEGAL DECK, then the correct remedy would be to issue your penalty, CORRECT the decklist and allow the player to play with his Fusion Deck. Judges please read P-20 and note that under Illegal Decklist, that "It is appropriate to fix the decklist to match the contents of the player's deck when this discrepancy is discovered." If you issue an Illegal Decklist penalty, there must be a correction to the Decklist by definition of the penalty. If you make no corrections to the Decklist, you're probably issuing the wrong penalty.

The P2 situation is much more difficult. If the player handed me a legal correct Main deck and Side deck and did not offer me his Deck box, nor did his opponent when asked ever see P2 access his Deck box during the match, no penalty can be asessed here. Whenever I play any tournaments, I always have my Deck box on the table (and it commonly has extra cards), but that box will remained closed at all time during match play and the rest of my cards will be visible on the table.

The situation would be different, if P2 placed his Main deck and Side deck in his Deck box and handed it to me. I would issue a game loss penalty for illegal Side deck cards and inform him that having the extra cards in the box warrants a penalty, because I as a judge cannot tell if he is using any of those extra cards during a match.

I agree that both players bear further watching during the tournament.

doc

 

[John Danker]

OK, remember you asked for comments, so here's mine:

First, when deckchecking players, I always like to wait until both players have shuffled their decks and then presented their decks to their opponents for randomization. At that time, I will stop both players and ask the players to hand me their decks, side decks and fusion decks and carefully watch where and what they give to me. When handing me side decks or fusion decks, those decks must come from the table, not a deck box. If the side and fusion decks don't come from open spots on the table, that player will already receive a penalty albeit it may be just a warning. Handing me a side deck in an open deck box is a definite no no. If you do that, I want your entire Deck box too. If any cards are still left on the table, I will ask what those specific cards are. I do NOT grab the deck box, but will take it if the player offers it to me. Players may ONLY play with the cards they place out on the table. If your opponent ever reaches back into his deck box to retrieve a card, call a judge immediately!

Yes Glen, I do want comments. I think this kind of discussion is very benifical among us.
In addressing you comments on P2...
Keep in mind here that in my opening announcements the instructions were to take everything off the table you do not need to complete the match. That being said, the only thing on the table after side deck, fusion deck, and main deck are removed should be an empty deck box, dice, coins, tokens, paper, pencil, calculator. At this point anything in the deck box I consider to be part of what they plan to use. What a player "hands" you isn't necessarily all they plan to use. Would they hand you a card from their sleeve? A couple of Kuriboh out of their pocket? The extra cards in their deck box? Not likely. Again, this is all perspective and how we as judges wish to view the "possibility" or "probablilty" of someone using a potential illegal edge to win a game / match.

I have to admit this type scenario was somewhat nebulous in the past, but L3's know there will be some changes in upcoming policy to clarify this.

Yes and I certainly look forward to those changes (provided they are made) ...with them I would have changed my ruling as far as P1 is concerned. As far as how the CURRENT penalty gudelines are lets review them....

If you as a judge clearly believe this was a situation with an ILLEGAL DECKLIST, but LEGAL DECK, then the correct remedy would be to issue your penalty, CORRECT the decklist and allow the player to play with his Fusion Deck. Judges please read P-20 and note that under Illegal Decklist, that "It is appropriate to fix the decklist to match the contents of the player's deck when this discrepancy is discovered." If you issue an Illegal Decklist penalty, there must be a correction to the Decklist by definition of the penalty. If you make no corrections to the Decklist, you're probably issuing the wrong penalty.

Now, it is possible they misunderstood the question at registration when they handed in the deck list. I saw little benefit in the player not registering their fusion deck and then bringing it to the table though. Had the player been trying to hide their fusion deck and produced it from a deck box upon using Metamorphosis or another special summon card I would have disallowed them from using their fusion deck at that point as well. Indeed I could have corrected the deck list to include the fusion deck, however, due to me asking the question at registration I was unwilling to do this and instead disallowed the use of the fusion deck.

Again, both P1's and P2's situation I feel could have been numerous ways...and a judge would be within their right to do so. I don't think there is (at this point with the current penalty guidelines) necessarily any "right" or "wrong" was that we've discussed to rule this. Even with the proposed penalty guideline changes P2's situation is a judgment call.

 

[ygo doc]

John, with the announcements you made, I certainly cannot argue the penalties you issued.

Even in the situation with P1, which as you can see I would have ruled as an Illegal Deck, not Illegal Decklist, this player has definitely committed a serious error. He was asked at the time he submitted his Decklist if he had a Fusion deck or not. He replied "no". The judge "X"-out his Fusion box on the Decklist!

In my reply, I purposefully said "issue penalty" w/o saying what penalty I would apply. I would have issued a game loss and disallowed the Fusion deck.

I do stand by what I posted concerning Illegal Decklists. If a judge really believes it was an illegal decklist, issue what penalty you feel is appropriate, but you MUST THEN LET THE PLAYER CORRECT THE DECKLIST! if not for this match, at least the remainder of the tournament. You never let P1 correct his decklist or play with the Fusion cards, so essentially you treated him as and ILLEGAL DECK, but LEGAL DECKLIST as you left the Decklist intact. All discovered illegal decklists need to be corrected to become a legal decklist!

A similar situation happened to me during a Regional tournament. Player 1 was playing with a Side Deck, not listed in his submitted Decklist. In order to allow him to play with his Side deck, I did rule he had an illegal Decklist, but upgraded his penalty to a game loss. This player who is also a judge and knows me well, began to argue he should only be issued a warning for an illegal decklist. Upon that reply, I told him I could change the penalty to an Illegal Deck error, not allow his Side Deck to be used for the remainder of the tournament and still issue a game loss! Needless to say, the player accepted the game loss, corrected his decklist and played on with a side deck. If the tournament penalty guidelines change as proposed, I will not have this latitude to allow the Side deck in the future.

doc

 

[John Danker]

This is why we call them penalty guidelines <s> Judges have different opinions and until they make the "Penalty Policy" I'm sure we'll see differences in actions taken by judges in such circumstances.