SJC St. Louis Ruling Questions

[ygo doc]

Here are a few ruling questions that came up multiple times at the St. Louis SJC.

Snipe Hunter and Gadgets
Turn Player discards a gadget monster (or any 1 card) from their Hand to activate Snipe Hunter's effect. They select an opponent's set Spell/Trap card to destroy. They roll the die and it turns up "3". The Non-Turn Player now says he chains the selected set Trap card Ring of Destruction to destroy Snipe Hunter. STOP!

This is an illegal play. Ring of Destruction may not be activated at this point as it is cutting into the resolving effect of Snipe Hunter. If RoD is to be chained, it must be done when Snipe Hunter selects its target, before the die is rolled. This is the same situation as Blowback Dragon. You must chain when these monsters select their targets, not when they resolve their effects to destroy a card.

Secret Barrel counts tokens. Check the FAQ!

Dimension Wall does NOT target. Yes, most duelists used this card like an unlimited Magic Cylinder which does target, but there are differences.

Ultimate Offering
This card may still only be used by the owner.
This card effect may be used more than once during the same turn.
This card may NOT be activated and have a monster summoned during the same chain. Case in point. Turn Player plays Heavy Storm, then chains his face-down Ultimate Offering and chains it again to summon a monster before the card is destroyed. STOP! This is NOT a legal play.

Although, Ultimate Offering can be chained to itself, it MUST be face-up on the field already to do so. In the above chain, you cannot pay 500 Lifepoints and chain UO to itself to summon/set a monster because the activation of UO has not yet resolved. You can't use the effect of Ultimate Offering until it has resolved to the Field.

The following chain is legal. Turn Player activates Heavy Storm. He then chains his FACE-UP Ultimate Offering to summon a gadget monster. This same chain becomes illegal when the Non-Turn Player chains his set Trap Hole to destroy the gadget monster. Ultimate Offering has not yet resolved in the chain to summon a monster, so Trap Hole cannot be activated here. By the time we wait for the chain to resolve, Trap Hole will be destroyed by Heavy Storm.

In a similar but different situation, Turn Player plays Fissure to destroy opponent's monster, then chains his face-up Ultimate Offering to bring out Breaker the Magical Warrior. The Non-Turn Player activates/chains his set Bottomless Trap Hole. STOP! Bottomless Trap Hole cannot be chained here, as no monster has yet been summoned until the chain resolves. Non-Turn Player says "OK", then lets chain resolve and then flips Bottomless Trap Hole to activate it. STOP! This is also illegal. Although, Breaker the Magical Warrior was summoned (and got a counter), the last thing to resolve in the game state was the destruction of a monster by Fissure, NOT the summoning of a >1500 ATK monster. BTH cannot be activated here.

Yes, there were lots of questions regarding Ultimate Offering. You can see why it is limited to one.

Elemental Hero Stratos and Dark Magician of Chaos are simultaneously special summoned from the removed from play area by Dimension Fusion or Return from the Different Dimension. Both monsters have their effects triggered and since they are both optional they go on chain and resolve in sequence determined by owner of effects.

Mind Crush
If the opponent does not have the named card in Hand, they must show their Hand to prove it. If they admit they have the card in Hand and discard it, you may not look at the player's Hand. However, if you suspect the opponent is cheating and has more than 1 copy of the card in Hand, you may call a judge over to check. This is posted on the judge site: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2554#2554.

Treeborn Frog in Standby Phase
Turn Player special summons Treeborn Frog in his Standby Phase and then uses Enemy Controller in his Hand to tribute and seize control of his opponent's face-up monster while still in Standby Phase. Turn Player then special summons Treeborn Frog again to his side of the Field. A very legitimate play. I was asked this question 3 times and the answer is the very 1st ruling posted on the FAQ under Treeborn Frog.

Future Fusion cannot use Fusion substitutes for its effect. Check the FAQ.

The above questions were asked more than once in some form of another, so I hope by posting these, no one will ask these same questions at the next tournament I judge.

doc

 

[SoilentG]

Thanks for posting all that. It's good to be reminded that BTH has to be activated when the last thing to happen was a summon and can't be inserted into the middle of a chain.

Also, I needed to hear the UO stuff again... again Thanks!

 

[Kogas_Abra]

I do not think we can thank eveyone enough when they take the time to work out these little rulings that stack up and make for an awkward lopsided game.

Every time I read one of these, I get into a better mind state and break the duel down to its specific components instead of just rushing through without questioning what just happened.

 

[John Danker]

One of the other questions that came up involved Card Trooper and Banisher of the Radiance. The question came about if Banisher of the Radience is face up on the field does Card Trooper still power up by 500 atk for each card since it's sent out of play instead. The ruling I gave was that since Card Trooper's effect is optional it cannot even activate it's effect since the full effect can't be carried out. Now, this wasn't necessarily a correct call since no official ruling has been made on it, however, unlike Kuriboh and Thunder Dragon which are discarded as a cost, (and still get their effect if sent out of play and not to the graveyard) Card Trooper's effect of sending the cards from the top of the deck to the graveyard is not a cost.

If you have proof or logical argument against this ruling by all means please point it out to me.

Card Trooper

Text:
Once per turn, you can send up to 3 cards from the top of your Deck to the Graveyard. This card gains 500 ATK for each card sent to the Graveyard this way, until the end of this turn. When this card on your side of the field is destroyed and sent to your Graveyard, draw 1 card.

 

[Absird]

I don't belive that ruling is correct. That's like saying if you have Banisher of the Radiance and Gravekeeper's Servant your opponant can't attack.

I would rule, he can activate his effect, but would his ATK would not increase

 

[Maruno]

Sounds just the same as this:

[Re: Macro Cosmos] You can activate "Polymerization" while "Macro Cosmos" is active on the field because sending Fusion Material Monsters to the Graveyard is an effect of "Polymerization" and not a cost.

He wouldn't boost his ATK, because cards didn't end up in the Graveyard.

 

[Entropy]

Why wouldn't it be a cost? It follows the cost template. The "Send ≤3 cards" part is a separate sentance from the rest of the effect.

Since there's no English ruling, there's still the JERP.

* Discarding the three cards is a cost.
* You cannot activate the effect if Macro Cosmos or Dimensional Fissure is on the field, since you can't send the cards to the Graveyard.

 

[HorusMaster]

Why wouldn't it be a cost? It follows the cost template. The "Send ≤3 cards" part is a separate sentance from the rest of the effect.

Since there's no English ruling, there's still the JERP.

* Discarding the three cards is a cost.
* You cannot activate the effect if Macro Cosmos or Dimensional Fissure is on the field, since you can't send the cards to the Graveyard.

I also agree that sending up to three cards from the top of the deck is a cost to activate the effect but disagree that you can't activate the effect because you can't send the cards to the graveyard. Since the cards didn't end up in the graveyard, there would not be any ATK increase because the cards didn't end up in the graveyard and not because they weren't sent there. Polymerization's condition to get it's effect is sending the cards to the graveyard and not that the cards end up there.

 

[John Danker]

Give me a "cost template" that is accurate for costs of all cards....that is, down to the last period, comma, and statement of what comes first and last in the text.....also, give me a template for the same when it comes to targeting. I'm about ready to leave judging this game on the basis of this alone.

 

[HorusMaster]

While I don't agree that a "cost template" or "targeting template" exists, I do believe that Card Trooper has a cost.
Payment of something to get effect of said card. Rough terms, I know but discarding the top three cards from your deck to the graveyard is a cost in order to increase the ATK of the monster. I also agree that if the cards are not in the graveyard, then there is no ATK increase but that is separate from sending the top three cards from your deck. If Macros or Banisher is on the field, you can still send the top three cards from your deck to the graveyard. The fact that they don't end up there is why the ATK does not increase.

 

[ygo doc]

Alas, I'm going to side with John Danker here, which is interesting, because I was first asked for my opinion of this same situation and I first said, the cards can be sent from the Deck, end up removed from play and no ATK increase. I have since changed my opinion.

Please read the rulings regarding Herald of Green Light and Herald of Purple Light. Sending cards to the Graveyard is a COST for these cards. If you can't send these cards to the Graveyard because Macro Cosmos or Bansiher of the Radiance are on the Field, then you cannot activate their effect.

Similarly, sending up to 3 cards from the top of the Deck to the Graveyard is a cost for Card Trooper. It's definitely not an effect. Costs are paid upfront, so you can't chain an effect to costs. So you would NOT be able to activate or chain Macro Cosmos to Card Trooper's cost of sending cards from the top of the Deck to the Graveyard. If you can't pay the cost due to a continuous effect on the Field, you cannot activate the card effect.

John's ruling is correct! Good thing you don't always listen to me John!

doc

P.S. If you don't have enough proof, read the Level monster cards. If you can't send Horus Lv4 or LV6 to the Graveyard and have them reach the Graveyard, you can't level up! Again, if you can't pay the cost, you can't activate the effect.

 

[Martok]

IMHO sending the 3 card from the Deck to the Graveyard is not a cost.

The wording is different from that of Bazoo's effect. Actually the first sentence in CT's effect alone would make a full-fledged effect on its own.

If it was a cost, then, with Dimensional Fissure, it would be undetermined if the cost can be paid or not. This is against the nature of a "cost", since it should always be clear if it can be rendered. Sending something from your Deck has never been a cost before.

And there's this ruling for Destruction of Destiny:
If "Macro Cosmos" is on the field the 3 cards will be removed from play, but you will still take damage for any Spell or Trap Cards.

 

[ygo doc]

IMHO sending the 3 card from the Deck to the Graveyard is not a cost.

The wording is different from that of Bazoo's effect. Actually the first sentence in CT's effect alone would make a full-fledged effect on its own.

If it was a cost, then, with Dimensional Fissure, it would be undetermined if the cost can be paid or not. This is against the nature of a "cost", since it should always be clear if it can be rendered. Sending something from your Deck has never been a cost before.

And there's this ruling for Destruction of Destiny:
If "Macro Cosmos" is on the field the 3 cards will be removed from play, but you will still take damage for any Spell or Trap Cards.

There is NOT an official template for what constitutes a cost or not; however, there have been some conventions used.

First, Destruction of Destiny has an "and" between the EFFECT of sending 3 cards from the Deck and the effect damage. Since the "and" ties these 2 parts together, we find that the sending of the 3 cards is part of the effect and not a cost. There is no "and" in Bazoo the Soul-Eater or Card Trooper.

I'm uncertain why you quote Bazoo. Bazoo has a cost to send up to 3 monsters from the Graveyard to removed from play, to increase its ATK. If Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer is on the Field, preventing Bazoo from removing the cards, Bazoo cannot pay the cost and Bazoo gets no ATK increase. You can't pay the cost, so you can't activate the effect. The rule is still followed here.

Card Destruction does not have a cost, because "and" ties both effects together. Dragged down to the Grave has "and" to tie the effects together to indicate it does not have a discard cost.

doc

 

[HorusMaster]

I don't belive that ruling is correct. That's like saying if you have Banisher of the Radiance and Gravekeeper's Servant your opponant can't attack.

So, John...based on Card Trooper's effect with Macros or Banisher on the field, if the above situation existed on the field, then the opponent would not be able to attack since he can't send a card from the top of his deck to the graveyard?

Just curious as if this is the case, I might arrange my deck around this thought.

 

[Martok]

Seems like I did not make myself very clear, sorry. I'll try to explain it more carefully.

There is NOT an official template for what constitutes a cost or not; however, there have been some conventions used.

First, Destruction of Destiny has an "and" between the EFFECT of sending 3 cards from the Deck and the effect damage.

I quoted the ruling about Destruction of Destiny for just one reason:
Destruction of Destiny says,
(...) take 1000 damage for each Spell or Trap Card sent to the Graveyard this way.

Card Trooper says,
(...) This card gains 500 ATK for each card sent to the Graveyard this way (...)

The wording is quite similar, and the ruling for DoD means that cards removed from play instread of being sent to the graveyard will still be treated as "sent to the Graveyard this way". This does not necessarily have to be applied to CT's effect, but it's well possible, so IMHO that ruling is interesting in conjunction with Card Trooper.

I'm uncertain why you quote Bazoo.

I've mentioned Bazoo because if sending the 3 cards to the graveyard for CTs effect was a cost, then its effect would be very, very similar to the effect of Bazoo. However, Bazoo's wording is,
You can remove from play up to 3 Monster Cards in your Graveyard to increase the ATK of this monster by 300 points for each card removed from play (...)

The formulation "to increase" indicates a cost, and the text is short and straightforward. So if CTs effect would follow the same pattern, there would have been nothing to keep UDE from using the same wording. But that did not happen; instead they chose a different and longer formulation. Since UDE tends to prefer short and simple expressions, it can be assumed that they had a good reason not to do so in this case.


Back to the card text of Card Trooper. Sending the 3 card from the top of the deck to the graveyard is separated from the rest of the text by a period. Let's have a look at this very first sentence:

Once per turn, you can (...)

This wording is nothing new. Apart from CT, there are 10 other monster cards that share exactly the same wording "Once per turn, you can..."
And in exactly 0 of 10 instances it refers to a cost.

The best example is Cu Chulainn:

Once per turn, you can remove from play 1 Normal Monster from your Graveyard. This card gains ATK equal to that Normal Monster's ATK, until the Standby Phase of your next turn.

From the Judge List:

Removing from play a monster from your Graveyard is part of the effect, it is not a cost.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=12338#12338

 

[ygo doc]

Seems like I did not make myself very clear, sorry. I'll try to explain it more carefully.


I quoted the ruling about Destruction of Destiny for just one reason:
Destruction of Destiny says,
[Send 3 cards from the top of your Deck to the Graveyard AND] take 1000 damage for each Spell or Trap Card sent to the Graveyard this way.

Card Trooper says,
[Once per turn, you can send up to 3 cards from the top of your Deck to the Graveyard.] This card gains 500 ATK for each card sent to the Graveyard this way (...)

The wording is quite similar, and the ruling for DoD means that cards removed from play instread of being sent to the graveyard will still be treated as "sent to the Graveyard this way". This does not necessarily have to be applied to CT's effect, but it's well possible, so IMHO that ruling is interesting in conjunction with Card Trooper.

That's why I said the word "AND" between what appears to be a cost and effect make a difference in Destruction of Destiny. Card Trooper does not have the word "AND" to help distinquish the cost and the effect.

Considering Bazoo the Soul-Eater's text has had errata at least twice; I don't consider it a good example. It's an older card that definitely had problems with the translation of its text. However, your example of Cu Chulain the Awakened is surprising and a excellent example of what drives judges like John and I crazy! When I read this text, everything tells me this monster effect has a cost. However, we know by ruling that removing the monster from play is not a cost; it's part of the effect.

Back to the card text of Card Trooper. Sending the 3 card from the top of the deck to the graveyard is separated from the rest of the text by a period. Let's have a look at this very first sentence:

Once per turn, you can (...)

This wording is nothing new. Apart from CT, there are 10 other monster cards that share exactly the same wording "Once per turn, you can..."
And in exactly 0 of 10 instances it refers to a cost.

The best example is Cu Chulainn:

Once per turn, you can remove from play 1 Normal Monster from your Graveyard. This card gains ATK equal to that Normal Monster's ATK, until the Standby Phase of your next turn.

From the Judge List:

Removing from play a monster from your Graveyard is part of the effect, it is not a cost.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=12338#12338

Using the "Once per turn" search really doesn't help; it just tells us the effect is limited to once per turn. If you shorten your search to "Once per turn", you'll find MANY monsters with cost effects:
Abyss Soldier
Avalanching Aussa
Chiron the Mage
Cyber Gymnast
Destiny Hero - Dasher
etc.

If players and judges are going to be able to read cards and tell if they have costs to their effects are not, the "once per turn" is irrelevant.

Your example of Cu Chulainn the Awakened is good support for your argument that Card Trooper does not have a cost. However, I will have to respectfully disagree in that I believe Card Trooper does have a cost. I hope that you at least agree that reading the text of cards does not clearly distinguish which cards have costs and which have only effects.

I am reminded of one my judge colleagues that has left the game of Yu-Gi-Oh! largely in part to the frustration of judging the effects of the cards. At the time, he used to say "1000 cards, 1000 rulings" inferring that you have to be intimately knowledgeable about every card to know how they are ruled. RONIN tells me today that the TCG has 2260 cards, and we're still growing!

Anyone that has Head Judged at Regional level and higher, will understand the frustrations of making rulings based on card texts. Card Trooper has no rulings, so we must make our decisions on the current body of rulings based on other cards.

doc

 

[John Danker]

Beckoning Light is a good example of a card text that appears to have a cost...but it's part of the effect..

Beckoning Light

Text
Discard all the cards in your hand to the Graveyard, then select a number of LIGHT monsters from your Graveyard equal to the number of cards you discarded, and add them to your hand.

It certainly would be helpful if a cost was always the first sentence (which, to the best of my knowledge it is) followed by a period (I haven't searched through all cards with costs to see if this is true) after the period followed by "by paying this cost <insert effect>

What are the instances of cards with card text that require cards to be sent to the graveyard which still get their effect if those cards are instead removed from play? I know Kuriboh and Thunder Dragon...what others?

As well, can we establish when and when not if part of an effect cannot be carried out the no part of the effect can take place...or even be activated?

I'm obviously trying to learn something here but I'm trying to establish rules of thumb so that when new cards are without helpful rulings we're able to, with a resonable percentage of certainty, be able to rule on them until such time as an official ruling is given.

 

[HorusMaster]

Still, the question has not been answered...

If Macros or Banisher was on the field along with Gravekeeper's Servant, would the opponent be able to attack?

 

[John Danker]

Quite honestly....I don't care to venture a guess, at this point there has been (that I have seen) no outline or template concerning cards with effects that include "....send to the graveyard...." and which of those effects still activate if the card instead goes out of play.

This is something I intend to bend an ear or two about with UDE and see what I can gather.

Consider the rulings below, take your time, contrast and compare, see if you can come up with similarities, contrasts, etc. Perhaps together we can logically figure this out and then it should be interesting to see how our logic compares with...hopefully, an eventual answer from UDE.

As I searched through RONIN with the phrase "send to the graveyard" I of course came up with many cards. Very few, however, had rulings regarding weather the effect still activates if the card that was sent didn't make it to the graveyard. This leaves things pretty wide open for interprutation.

So I'm looking for a pattern. What I can gather so far is that if the card is sent to the graveyard as a cost has no bearing on weather the effect still resolves....what else can we gather?


Avatar of The Pot

Text
By sending 1 "Pot of Greed" from your hand to the Graveyard, draw 3 cards from your Deck.

Rulings
Sending "Pot of Greed" to the Graveyard is a cost.
You cannot activate "Avatar of the Pot"'s effect while "Banisher of the Light" is in play.

Banisher of the Light

Text
As long as this card remains face-up on the field, any card sent to the Graveyard is removed from play instead.

Rulings:
Effects that trigger when cards are sent to the Graveyard, such as "Sangan", "Witch of the Black Forest", "Mystic Tomato", "The Immortal of Thunder" and "Last Will", will not activate.

Kuriboh" and "Thunder Dragon" can be discarded from your hand and activated while "Banisher of the Light" is on the field.

Kuriboh

Text

Discard this card. Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0. You can only use this effect during your opponent's Battle Phase.

Rulings:
[Re: Gravekeeper's Watcher] You cannot activate "Gravekeeper's Watcher" when a card is discarded as a cost, such as "Magic Jammer", "Kuriboh", "Tribute to the Doomed", "Thunder Dragon", or "Type Zero Magic Crusher".

The Immortal of Thunder

Text
FLIP: Increase your Life Points by 3000 points. When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, you lose 5000 Life Points.Rulings:[Re: Banisher of the Light] Effects that trigger when cards are sent to the Graveyard, such as "Sangan", "Witch of the Black Forest", "Mystic Tomato", "The Immortal of Thunder" and "Last Will", will not activate.

 

[densetsu_x]

What are the instances of cards with card text that require cards to be sent to the graveyard which still get their effect if those cards are instead removed from play? I know Kuriboh and Thunder Dragon...what others?

Even though you have the correct text listed on Kuriboh in your other post, just to point out again, both Kuriboh and Thunder Dragon were errata-ed such that it just has to be discarded.

Thunder Dragon
Effect Monster (Thunder / LIGHT / 5 Stars / ATK 1600 / DEF 1500)
During your Main Phase, by discarding this card, add up to 2 "Thunder Dragons" from your Deck to your hand.

Kuriboh
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 1 Star / ATK 300 / DEF 200)
Discard this card. Make the Battle Damage inflicted to your Life Points by 1 of your opponent's monsters 0. You can only use this effect during your opponent's Battle Phase.

So those are at least 2 examples they did try to clear up (although since it is a discard for a cost, it would still be prevented if Goblin of Greed is on the field).